The Wize Way

Episode 160: 3 Golden Tips for Becoming a Better Client Manager

• Wize Mentoring for Accountants and Bookkeepers • Season 2 • Episode 160

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"You don’t create success. You attract success by the person you become." – Jamie Johns

In this episode of The Wize Way Podcast, Brenton Ward sits down with Jamie Johns—CEO of Sky Accountants and Co-Founder of Wize Mentoring—to unpack the three golden traits every successful client manager must have.

Jamie shares:
 ✅ Why these soft skills matter more than technical expertise
 ✅ How to train and double-back meetings with aspiring client managers
 ✅ Why great leadership starts with self-awareness
 ✅ The practical tools and mindsets you need to scale your firm

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PS: Whenever you’re ready… here are the fastest 4 ways we can help you fix and grow your accounting firm:

1. Take the Wize Accountants Scale Scorecard – Find out your potential to scale and the next steps you should follow – Start Your Scorecard

2. Download our famous Wize Freedom Strategy Map for FREE - Find out the 96 projects every firm owner must implement to build a $5M+ firm that can run without them - Download here

2. Need to Hire right now? Book a 1:1 FREE discovery call with our WizeTalent hiring coaches to help find your next team member the Wize Way – Click Here

4. Book a 1:1 Wize Discovery Session – Spend 30mins with our Wize CEO, Jamie Johns, a $7M firm owner who is ready to give you his entire business plan to build a firm that can run without you – Find out more here

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, good.

Jamie Johns:

Bren, I'm going really well down here in Lawn Victoria, Australia, lovely part of the world, you know, just received multiple videos from you rubbing in the sunshine, running down the beach, having a great time on a Friday afternoon, so what? s

Jamie Johns:

Living place to be Sing an air supply.

Brenton Ward:

Living the dream, most would say, it's something like that. Jamie, another great week in the SMEs world of Wize, a lot of conversations with enterprises, owners, and exciting new territory for us this week, where you coached the first business client of an MBA of your accounting firm. So we're now helping accounting firms coach MBAs, which Australia is pretty exciting.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, it's's massive milestone. I think it's so cool to be able to help. You know SMEs, as we call them, small to medium-sized enterprises, and you know one of the comments was that one of the attendees had just finished doing an MBA. You know, I think if you're and I think an MBA in Australia will cost you like 40 or 50K. Yeah, big time. And the person came out of it and said, well, I never learnt any of that at uni, so you know it sort of makes you wonder what universities are actually teaching.

Brenton Ward:

Especially at the business, level, because, like you'd think, you know, a degree is one thing, an MBA is a different league.

Jamie Johns:

Like master's of business, and for the person to say principles, oh, I never learned of that in uni, it's fascinating. Yeah, it sort of fascinates me because you know, I've what's in over 20 years and you know, own or got ownership of multiple businesses and the fact that you Elon Musk universities aren't teaching some of these, and with all respect to you, I mean we're not talking about rocket science here.

Jamie Johns:

We're like simple fundamentals, simple, you know, basic principles, yeah, exactly so, yeah, it's just interesting to know you know what academia is actually teaching in terms of what's relevant to the real world. So you know, it's funny when I say that because I reflect on Elon Musk, you know, and some of these tycoons in business worry resource, about a degree and don't worry about qualifications, and all true to extent. And even Ed Chan, you know, our Co-Founder. You know, a lot of people always focus on, oh, you know, you have to have this qualification, but when you talk to Ed, he never to come mentions that first.

Brenton Ward:

That's a great segue into what I want to talk to you about, because the conversation I want to have is all around of service breeding and developing amazing client managers we can't build a firm that runs without us, without great client managers, because without great client managers we're stuck in the seat of client management. So I want to. You've just recently developed a resource, and you've been talking about it a bit with clients, the three golden ways to better managers. So I want to touch on those three ways today. Yeah, but before into the tactical bits of it, what are the three ways? Where did this come from? million- sparked threshold, coming three ways?

Jamie Johns:

It always comes up. Brent with a problem. I think, think you know, like, I think, if we can be service to people, it's always identifying what the roadblock is, why people are in their firms or their business. And then you know, identifying what the solution is. And at the end of the day, that's where you develop value. You know, and so you've just got to work out branching, removing the solution that doesn't go around the problem, that goes through the problem. And you know there's a, there's a really why you know around four percent, five percent of all businesses stay under the million dollar threshold because there's that, you know, there's just that ceiling or that barrier that they can't get through. So the reason that we really wanted to hone in on this solution around the three factors of a great client manager is that I would say that you know 95% of firm owners get stuck at that sales division.

Jamie Johns:

So you know how, Brent, we always talk about the seven divisions, you know, and for anyone who's listening or watching doesn't know, you know the first division is is board of management, then there's marketing, then there's sales, then there's production, then you've got quality admin and accounts, so most people can be fairly successful. Then you've got quality admin and accounts, so most people can be fairly successful, you know, removing themselves up until Division 4, which is production. But Division 3 is sales. You know, sales dealing with clients. That can be really tough to try and get yourself out of.

Jamie Johns:

That Division 3 role in sales, dealing with the chart, clients, and so you know it's the biggest problem is firm, so, the more solutions that we've got weeds, it, your ability as a firm owner to know how to see the potential in say, others so that then they can I'm client manager and replace you, and then you can continue on that journey of withdrawal, continue on that journey of working on your firm and doing the tasks that you should be doing, because dealing with clients every day doesn't allow you to work on the business. Dealing with clients every day it means that you're working in the business. Dealing with clients every day means that you work in the business. Yeah, so that's sort of the context.

Jamie Johns:

You know I always love talking about the org chart, Brenton, because it's like the helicopter view of your firm, and you know when you're in the weeds, you're not seeing the helicopter view. Yeah, so you've got to step back and say, hang on, you know where the DNA is, working in the firm, what are my goals? Or, you know, am I stuck in Division 3, which is sales? So, yeah, be able to develop or hire client managers with the right skills to get out of that division.

Brenton Ward:

Talk about that a little bit of the DNA, there's a misconception that in order for someone to be a client manager, they have to be an amazing accountant, highly technical. They're basically like a superstar, right? They have to have all the qualities, all the right DNA, and they're almost like unicorns to find. Let's bust that myth a little bit. Let's bust the myth, yeah, myth a little bit, yeah, and from your experience of both developing amazing client managers, I think you've got what. Between seven teams, you've probably got close to 14 now, between senior and assistant client managers, and you've seen plenty more than that.

Brenton Ward:

So let's dissect a bit of the DNA and, there are we can boil, bottle it down into there are three qualities of books, you want to point out in this conversation, let's go there. But yeah, let's start with DNA.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, well, the DNA, look, Dale Canady thinks, you know, there are books on this. You know there are a thousand books, and you can see the bookshop behind me. But one of the absolute classics of this one is How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Jamie Johns:

They'll come again, yeah, Dale Canady, you know, if you want to do if you want to do a deep dive into this, there's another book called the Likability Factor, but Dale Canady's How to Win Friends and Influence People, you know. So the the role of a client manager is to be a P is you have to be a people person. You need to like people first and foremost. So you need a certain level of interpersonal skills. You really do. If you go to work and you don't like working with people, and if you don't like taking phone calls or correspondence with clients, then you really shouldn't be in that role. So you know, you can't change the DNA.

Jamie Johns:

You know, I've always known myself, I've just sort of essentially liked people, and you know, one of the quickest ways to get to like people is just to ask them questions, right? So you know, if you're a client manager or a budding client manager, or aspiration to deal with clients, you're going to need to be a good listener, and I find the easiest way to break the barriers with strangers even, and build really quick rapport is to listen and just ask questions. So, you know, which sort of leads me to those three factors, right? So, you know, one of the first factors is to have empathy. You really need to have empathy with people in that essence. You know, I hear you, I understand your concerns, I understand your problems, and really, as the old saying goes, you know getting those person's moccasins, you know getting those person's shoes and understanding their frame of reference.

Jamie Johns:

Not everyone can do that, you know, you can only do that when you're really listening, you know, and there's actually a lot of resources in the Wize Vault around you know leadership with senior client managers, particularly.

Jamie Johns:

I've seen senior client managers, Brenton, when they go into a meeting with someone and they're trying to address a problem correctly. So there's a problem with a team member, but what you see is the senior client manager doing 80% of the talking. They almost talk over someone else. Now, the opposite is where the solution is. You let the team member do 80% of the talking and it's better if you use tools too to draw out what their concern is, because if you're doing sort of 80% of the talking, then you're not going to hear what the problem is and also you're not going to create a non-blame culture.

Jamie Johns:

So you've really got to do a study on what empathy actually means and understanding another person's frame of reference, and you know, even Dr Stephen Covey's book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and you know, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's Habit 5, first understand before being understood. Seek to understand. Yeah, seek to understand before being understood.

Brenton Ward:

So the first critical factor is empathy, for sure, yeah, so I just want to, with the looking at it with the lens of you know, we use a lot of sporting analogies and there's a lot of crossover and power parallels between business and sport. But in sport, the athlete or the player is going to practice every week, right, so they're either competing in whatever their race is or whatever their game is, but every week, every day, they're going and practicing their craft. We tend to forget that piece. In business, you know, we just want to play the game and run the race, but we get to practice. So in that light, with that lens, how do you practice empathy? How do you get better at empathy?

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, it's a great question. So what you have to do is you really have to be assertive about where your business is going and where your business is at. And the way to be assertive about you know your business and your life is to have a plan. You know, what's your plan, what's your goal? So many people I talk to, Brent, but they've got no goals. They're just like sort of robots, and you know they're nine to five and get in the car and the traffic and you know, and they do that for the rest of their life. So the problem is, as a firm owner, you need to have a plan, you need to have a goal, and part of that plan is to eventually have a client manager. So once you identify a client manager, you know you've got to take action and to, you know, execute.

Jamie Johns:

The practice in terms of your question is to bring the person into the meetings with you. You know, and we call it double backing the meeting. So when you get a new lead, when you get a new referral, bring the client manager, bring the potential client manager in with you and show them, train them, what you do. You know how you use your hands here, what your body language is, how you find out, you know, how you use your hands, what your body language is, how you find out, and how you build rapport with people. You know, I was recently in Perth with one of our mentors, and Thomas said to me, oh it's fascinating. He said I just watched Jamie. I watched how you deal with people, and he said I picked up so many little things. You ask lots of questions, you know. You look them in the eye.

Jamie Johns:

It might sound basic, but the way that you practice, in that sense, in the analogy coming from sport in your business, is to identify the people in your firm who could be potential client managers and then double back on the meetings. And then what I love to do is, after about six times, Brenton, I'll say the seventh time, you know, to the up-and-coming client manager, who's you know whether they're a senior accountant or a senior bookkeeper, I'll say, okay, now it's your turn, go, right. And they look at me, oh really. And then they have to chair the meeting. You know they have to follow the agenda, they have to deliver the proposal, and sure enough, you'll see.

Jamie Johns:

You know, you'll see those who can kick goals. You'll see who, those who shine, yeah, who's though? Have a great attitude, and so that's how you do it. But see, a lot of accountants they'll be worried about you know their chargeable time. You know, oh, it's going to cost me my time and the other person's time, right? But you have to invest in people, and you know, like that old quote says, you know, oh, it does cost you to invest in people, but, geez, it costs you a lot more when you don't.

Brenton Ward:

Yeah, so just to drill on that a little bit more, your belief is because there will be a lot of people listening to this going, I think I've got a good client manager in mind, but they're a bit blunt with clients, you know. They probably don't have that empathetic DNA in them right now, but it is learnable, it is trainable, and it is teachable.

Jamie Johns:

It's absolutely teachable and it just comes down to someone's career path, their career audit, and you know what their attitude is. So if you've got a good attitude and that's their career path and we talk about a thing called a career audit, which we can talk about another day but provided they've got the right mindset and they've got a good attitude, after that double back of the meeting, one of the key things everyone is to have a debrief. So once you've had the meeting and you've seen the client, you should then take, you know, five or ten minutes to debrief with the you know potential client manager and you know five or ten minutes to debrief with the you know potential client manager and you know analyse it, say you know, what did we do well? What did we do so well? Why didn't we build rapport?

Jamie Johns:

You know a husband or wife in the meeting, or partners, you know, and you've got to practise modalities, because one person can be what we call a red client, the other one can be blue, or one can be left brain and right brain. So as a client manager, you've got to know when to switch modalities. You know switch gears, as we call it. So to round that off, that debrief is probably like the 80-20 rule you know it's like the 80% have seen their clients doing discussion.

Jamie Johns:

But the real value is in the 20% debrief after the meeting, because then you can. You can say, oh look, you can give feedback to the potential person coming through. Look, you know, you spoke to them technically, you spoke over them. You know the clients left, and they didn't know what a concessional versus non-concessional super contribution is. You know, if you talk really technical, you're just gonna blow the clients off because they won't have a clue what you're talking about. So you've got to bring yourself down to their level and, you know, I always. You know when you're winning and kicking goals, when the client at the end of the interview leaves and they'll say to you, you know, know, you're the first person I understand, you're the first accountant that I understand in a long time. You know what you explained.

Brenton Ward:

It makes sense, so you know that, and when they say we'll see you next time, client manager, we don't need to see you anymore. Jamie, yeah, pretty much that's right.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right.

Brenton Ward:

And yeah, if I can do it the kid from the bush.

Jamie Johns:

Anyone can do it.

Brenton Ward:

Yeah, talk to us about that second quality out of the three. So we've got empathy. What's the second?

Jamie Johns:

Authenticity. Okay, yeah, so the second one is authenticity.

Jamie Johns:

Second, authenticity. Okay, yeah, so the second one is authenticity. It's just about being real, and particularly in our industry, which you know is full of compliance, full of technicalities, the law, taxation, matters, it's important that you explain, you know, when you do know things, but, even more importantly, as a client manager, when you don't know things because you know it comes back to not trying to find superstars. You know, a superstar account in bookkeeper is very hard to find. There are n't many of them. When you do find them, they're very expensive and, lastly, they're hard to keep the superstars. So what you want to build is you don't want to build what we call a championship team, you want to build a team of champions. And so you want to build a team, what we call the Wize old team, where one person's strengths supplement or compensate the other person's weaknesses. That's what. That's what teamwork's all about. Yeah, you'll never, you'll never find any team, whether it's a hockey team, basketball, or football, where all the players are the same.

Brenton Ward:

You know yeah, you have a tall person.

Jamie Johns:

You are a short person. You have a person who can kick long. You can have a person who can kick short but very accurately, and then you play them in to position. That's what we need to do in our businesses, and so, in that sense, being authentic about what you're good at and what you're not good at, and when to bring you know, there are times when you need to bring a specialist in, you know. It's like sort of like in the physician or the doctor. You have a general practitioner, and you need to know when to bring in the senior production manager. Or you know the Xero specialist, like you know the software specialist, you know, or the super fund specialist. What a client manager has to be good at is that level of authenticity and not trying to BS, their way through the discussion because clients read that. What clients are after is they're after good advice from you and the team in an authentic way.

Jamie Johns:

So you can't sort of try and you know social media yourself and have this perspective that you know you're one person there and another person there.

Jamie Johns:

The authenticity is very important because when you're authentic, obviously people connect with you and often stories, telling stories are a really good way to relate to people because they'll say, oh yeah, I had that happen to me, you know, and you can draw those parallels and I always know, like whenever I'm talking to you or anyone and say, oh yeah, we went and did this, and you know, like whenever I'm talking to you or anyone and say, oh yeah, we went and did this and you know this happened to me and our business went, you know, this direction or whatever that just builds authenticity, yeah so authenticity correct me if I'm wrong breeds or it encourages vulnerability, not just from the client manager but also from the client, because I often find even the client puts on a bit of a front because they don't want to look silly, you know I don't want to look silly in front of my account, I don't want to look like I don't know my business and things like that, so that authenticity cuts through that and allows for a genuine relationship, also allows for problems to bubble to the surface that you can solve together quicker, rather than finding out about them after the fact.

Brenton Ward:

Maybe would that be right from your experience? Absolutely.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think part of that authenticity is look, I don't know, but I'll find out.

Jamie Johns:

The other thing is, obviously, you've got, you know, client manager client relationship is when mistakes do occur, is knowing how to handle client mistakes, you know. So you can sort of develop a policy on that. But at a human level, you know, research has found for the last 20-odd years that most clients or consumers expect mistakes, but the great majority of people, 80% of people, will stay with the firm based on how the problem is handled or how the problem is solved. So that's all part of that being vulnerable, you know, not trying to cover it up, not trying to shift the blame, that's like yep, look, we dropped the ball. However, we're going to do X, Y, and Z to help you and fix this. Most people will appreciate that and stay with you, and that builds loyalty into the emotional bank account. It's Dr Covey's Seven Habits, you know. Building that emotional bank account is very important because with that emotional bank account and that authenticity, there will be times when you need to withdraw, and that's only. That's only normal in all human relationships.

Brenton Ward:

So that's on the client side. Talk to me a little bit about the authenticity factor, because a client manager is ultimately the leader of a team. So, how does that authenticity factor come into being a great leader and managing the team?

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, I think that rapport and trust are built with your weekly or monthly one-on-ones in terms of the client manager leading their team. So they really need to be a really well-knit, close-knit team. The client manager needs to understand the private lives, for example, of all the team members. You know what's going on because their private lives do affect work, and things in our lives happen, and they flow, good and bad. And if you can understand from an authentic level, what's going on in their lives, you're better able to support them and manage them through the good times and the bad times. So, you know, in a practical sense, Brenton, how is that developed? It's developed with one-on-one time, just like this, like just one-on-one time, just like this, like just one-on-one time. And you need to like make time for that, you need to schedule for that, and you know we do a lot of work here with scheduling now one-on-one times, things like the career audit, the career wheel, energy audit. You know, we really follow. There's a great book everyone can read, Everyone Deserves a Great Manager book. It's by Scott Miller. So you know, that's on the other side, around the team. You've got to develop really those foundations and trust and each of the team members, and you know, you need to essentially be their hero. They need. You know.

Jamie Johns:

Remember that workshop we ran one time, Brenton, and I said, you know, everyone thought it was going to be a boring topic, yeah, and I said to everyone, I said, can everyone here just nominate one person that they looked up to, who gave them a go? Who's the one person in your career that you recall gave you a go, that had an influence on you, and believed in you? And there wasn't one person, probably out of 40 people, who didn't put a name in the chat. Yeah, so my question was then are you the hero for your team? And then I think you could have heard a pin drop.

Brenton Ward:

It's a great conversation. Yeah, because there's a bit of a look in the mirror moment there for a lot of us who are stuck in the weeds and, you know, have the ability to be that person. But we need to do the work to get there. Yeah, so talk to me then about the third factor. So we've got empathy, we've got authenticity. What ?

Jamie Johns:

a way we can know, it solutions focused. So a great client it, manager solutions- a great So, a great way to be general is to be enthusiastic. You know general, um, and I always remember reading and I think if you look at the deeper meaning of enthusiasm, it actually means like the God within, you know the spirit within.

Jamie Johns:

In other words, make sure you know you're a positive, solutions-focused person. That's, you know, people like that, that's likeable, you know. But I think we've all had the case where we might, you know, go to a dinner or a lunch with someone and we come away from that contact, we come away from that communication and we just feel drained. You know, it's like, oh, that was the drag. Yeah, because someone might have all they did was talk about other people and say how bad other people were, say how bad the world was complain. Yeah, complain about everything. Right, so you know. So the message there is the opposite. You know, we will find a way. Okay, we recognise it's difficult, we will find a way, and we'll use this tool. Okay, we recognise it's difficult, we will find a way, we'll use this tool, we'll hire this person, and we'll put a plan together. Enthusiasm in word, in deed, in your body language and enthusiasm.

Jamie Johns:

It's such a powerful emotion and display of being positive that it's catchy, Can I?

Brenton Ward:

I'm going to put you on the spot for this because I'm pretty. I'm almost certain it was you who told me about this, because the story always comes into my head. But everyone's probably familiar with the storybook Winnie the Pooh. Oh yeah, and there's the story that goes, you know, from this perspective around the enthusiasm of are you showing up as Tigger, who's the tiger? Or as Eeyore, who's the donkey? That's right. Can you give me a glimpse into that?

Jamie Johns:

Oh, it's just's just. Look, all it was was years ago, there's a chap in America called Randy Pausch, I think I'm not sure how to pronounce his name. It's actually. Yeah, it's actually. It's actually a bit of a sad story. Randy got pancreatic cancer, and he had this concept of what we call a last lecture. Actually, I've got the book. Actually it's called the Last Lecture, if you want to look it up, and Randy Pausch did his last lecture and one of his lectures.

Jamie Johns:

He did it at Carmellon University, and then somehow Oprah Winfrey picked it up, and he ended up going on, you know, national television on Oprah Winfrey. But part of his, you know, I can't remember it was, you know it was like seven life lessons, because obviously he had a very clear perspective of, you know, the poor chap was dying and he did die, but he had, you know, these life lessons and one of the life lessons he was just, he actually wrote the last lecture for his two or three kids. So, it was very personal to him, but it really impacted everyone. And one of the wet lessons he said was you know, are you showing up every day as tigger or eeyore, yeah, right, and I remember you know, if anyone listening to this wants to Google Randy P"or. Pausch's last lecture with Oprah Winfrey.

Brenton Ward:

I highly encourage it. It's brilliant.

Jamie Johns:

It's probably one of the most impactful videos, speeches, that's, you know, in five minutes I've ever watched. You know, I think if we know we're going to die, then it really cuts through all the BS. And Randy Pausch's speech, you know, I think if we know we're going to die, then it really cuts through all the BS. And Randy Pausch's speech, you know, he said, turn up every day as a tiger. You know, so a tiger, yeah.

Brenton Ward:

A bounding sense of enthusiasm, yeah.

Jamie Johns:

Enthusiasm, we can do it, you know, there is a way, there is a solution. So, you know, I think a great characteristic of a client manager really is, you know, has to be that level of enthusiasm, because you know, if you're dealing with clients every day and you're always saying, no, we can't do this, no, we can't do that, you're not. You know, you're just gonna be sort of withdrawing from the environment, from the vibe.

Jamie Johns:

You've got to be able to say, well, I think we, we can do this, and if we do X, Y, Z, then we'll get that outcome. And that's, you know, that's enthusiasm. Enthusiasm is so catchy too.

Brenton Ward:

Is enthusiasm an input or an output? Do you think of personal behavior? Because when I think about it and you mentioned the time and energy audit that we do with people, with team members, and that time and energy audit is made up of you know what's your sleep like, what's your exercise like, what's your social life like, what's your nutrition like right now. Yeah, if those things are in balance and scoring well, does that equate to enthusiasm, or is enthusiasm just a state of mind?

Jamie Johns:

I think both. Yeah, I don't think most things are black and white in life, but I think you know, if you look at the energy audit about, you know, sleep connection, eat those sorts of things. Obviously we can always maximise our mental and physical health, and you know, that starts with those things we just spoke about. At the same time, I think enthusiasm, I think it can be learned, because if you want to become someone you aren't and you want it bad enough. I do believe it can be learned. But the other thing is, probably, the third point is that some people just tend to be born like that.

Brenton Ward:

Yeah.

Jamie Johns:

They just tend to look on the bright side, you know, like eternal optimists. Yeah, my oldest daughter is like it. My father-in-law likes it. Nothing would rattle them like nothing, would? You know? Problems don't really rattle them, you know.

Jamie Johns:

So all personalities are different. Some personalities are very short on level. You know, my personality is more like you know, I'll be high for a long time, and I might have a dip and then come back up. So you know, but it's important that, particularly if you are a client manager, you know, you leave. You know, I think there's a new Wize Weekend tip that I recently wrote, and the title of the tip was, How Do You Leave People Feeling? You know, that's the whole tip, like that's the key, how do you leave people? I think that's the title is How Do You Leave People. And the fact that the sort of title is how do you leave people, and you know the fact the sort of the explanation is how do you feel after leaving, or how do you leave people feeling after they've had contact with you? Yeah, and it's a really good question, it's a really good one.

Brenton Ward:

It's a beautiful question because, yeah, your energy is real, right, you know, if you're having a bit of an off day and your children are the biggest, you know, mirrors of your energy, I feel. But when you walk into a room, you're either feeding that room with energy or you're sucking it out, and being aware of that impact that you're having on other people certainly in a client situation as well is really important.

Jamie Johns:

And this sort of sum it up too, Brenton, like I think, on this particular topic, Socrates said you know the unexamined life is not worth living, and so my point is you really need to understand yourself yeah, I was going to say this self-awareness is such a huge thing in this, isn't it like?

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, you need to understand yourself, you need to understand your strength, you need you know. Like when I walk into a room full of people, it ignites me. Like when I walk into a room of people with my personality, it's like, oh, I need to speak to every person. You know, someone else might walk into a room of people and think, oh, I just want to hide in the corner. And that's not a bad thing, it's just whatever comes naturally to you. You can't change a leopard's spots.

Brenton Ward:

Yeah. So, like if we want to slap a label on that right there, society would tell us that one's an extrovert, one's an introvert, so the extrovert walks into a room and, you know, lights up at the thought of meeting 50 new people. The introvert would much rather stand by the coffeeiosk and you know, observe.

Jamie Johns:

Yes.

Brenton Ward:

As the stigma or the stereotype goes, but in a profession where, if you looked at the statistic, it's probably largely made up of introverts.

Jamie Johns:

More left-brained people. Yeah.

Brenton Ward:

So does that mean that just to get your thoughts on that? Does that mean that introverts or people who are more inclined to walk into that room and not really want to? You know, meet every one of those 50 people.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, well, it's not all black and white, because you know we always talk about, you know, society, or, in an academic sense, you know, the term of extrovert and introvert is thrown around. But you know Carl Jung, the famous psychologist, who created it from his research. There's also what we call an ambivert, but you know, Carl Jung, the famous psychologist, created it from his research. There's also what we call an ambivert. You know, yeah, and that's what I wanted to.

Brenton Ward:

That's why I wanted to. It's almost like a myth bust as well, because, like I hate the labels, because then you, you know, people box themselves in one or they get boxed in one, whereas an introvert can also be. Someone walks into a room and loves talking to people, and well, an ambivert or introvert.

Jamie Johns:

They can be really really good in a one-to-one or one-to-two.

Jamie Johns:

You know, client manager meeting um circumstances, right? Yeah. And often, you know, people in general and I've I've read a lot of books, of course, but one of the things is people in general love a calm sales person. People love to deal with people who are calm, yep, and so you know. So, whether you're an introvert or any of it, some of those top personalities do really well in that one-on-one situation with a client, whereas, you know, with a total extrovert. They might do so well with one-on-one because they can't keep focused, but they might, you know, when they walk into a room, like me, like you know, they might even perform better. So, it's important that you don't sort of box people in labels because you've got, it's not all black and white, you've got to look at different.

Brenton Ward:

I'm glad we touched on that because I feel like that stereotype can box people in; they go, and then that turns into an I am not statement. Well, I'm not a client manager because I'm an introvert, you know, I can't be a client manager, which is not true at all.

Jamie Johns:

Which is not true.

Brenton Ward:

So let's round out this conversation, Jamie, I think there are some really good points there that people listening, and can kind of reflect on for themselves or take back to their team and start to have a conversation around it at least. So the three gold nuggets there are empathy, authenticity, and enthusiasm, with some really good sort of actions and takeaways, and reflections there. How would you like to round this conversation out so anyone listening to this episode can take the next step? You know, take some action on this chat, yeah.

Jamie Johns:

Well, again, it sort of comes back to where we started the discussion. I think if you're a firm owner, you need to identify which areas you're still working in the business. So I come back to that, our org chart, you know, and the seven divisions. So you know, if you've got aspirations to get your firm to work without you and you're still dealing with clients that division three then today's discussion is really important because, first of all, you know, first step I'm going to go like through a checklist here is identify the strengths and weaknesses of each of your staff members.

Jamie Johns:

You know, I would roll out things like the career audit, which is a fascinating tool. We can have a podcast on that as well and then, once you've done that, I would study at depth what we call the Wize ideal team, a bit like if you were a coach of a sports team, knowing you know who's full forward and full back and center and ruck and all that sort of thing. But once you've studied that Wize ideal team, your role then as a leader is to play each person to their position. And you're going to play each person to their position based on their strengths and their weaknesses and what you'll get out of their career or it. That's really the third step there. And then really the fourth step, then there is, you know, to discuss with each of your team members about what their career path is and which role they're going to play in the team, and where their career path may lead them. So, even if they're a junior accountant in the team and their career path may lead them to so, even if they're a junior accountant or a junior bookkeeper, it doesn't mean they can't be a client manager one day. So people leave if they don't have a career path. So you know, in a practical sense, that it's design your teams right.

Jamie Johns:

And, in a bigger sense, each team can do about a million dollars in fees, and you know, once you've got your first million, you know, then you can go to your next team. You know, 10 years ago I started with one team with a million dollars, and you know, now my firm, Sky Accountants, we're almost you know, we've got seven teams almost at sort of $7 million. So you can't sit there and say that it's not possible, because it is possible. You just need knowledge. You need the knowledge, the know-how, and the leadership, and it is possible. You've just got to be very clear what your goals are, and then you know what's that last thing we say, Brent, like you don't create success. You attract success to yourself by the person that you become. And that's what I like, the philosophy of Wize Mentoring, because if you want to grow your firm, it's going to have to start with you. It's going to have to start with private victory. You know, Dr Covey says private victory and then public victory.

Brenton Ward:

Yeah, love it, Jamie. That's been a brilliant conversation, thank you. I hope everyone listening in has taken something from that, and we'd love for you to share your comments or your feedback, or what's going on as a result of that conversation in your life or your firm. So do reach out to us, connect with us, and if we can help you in any other way, please do let us know so Jamie. See you in another episode.

Jamie Johns:

Thanks again, have a good weekend you too, see you mate,