The Wize Way

Episode 119: Hiring Tips to create a team that can excel your business into growth

• Wize Mentoring for Accountants and Bookkeepers • Season 1 • Episode 119

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In this episode of The Wize Guys Podcast, Thomas Sphabmixay and Jamie Johns delve into essential hiring strategies to build a team that propels your accounting or bookkeeping practice into sustained growth. 

Thomas emphasises the importance of hiring not just to maintain the status quo, but to foster real business expansion. Jamie outlines two critical questions every firm owner must answer: knowing when to hire and determining who to hire. He introduces the capacity planner as a fundamental tool for timing new hires and discusses the importance of identifying the right resource mix—whether you need a finder, minder, or grinder.

The discussion covers practical tips on creating a structured hiring process to avoid mishires, emphasizing the high costs associated with bad hires. Jamie and Thomas stress the value of promoting from within and aligning individual career goals with the firm’s direction. Thomas also addresses a common concern about quickly assessing new hires, highlighting the importance of identifying unsuitable candidates early to avoid prolonged issues and the sunk cost fallacy. Jamie suggests that while a three to six-month probation period is typical, firms should strive to recognize fit within a shorter timeframe.

The episode wraps up with actionable advice on attracting talent in a competitive market, effective advertising, and the significance of integrity, energy, and responsiveness in potential hires. The team discusses the benefits of utilizing an applicant tracking system and structured interview guides to streamline the hiring process. 

Tune in for a comprehensive guide on mastering the art of hiring to ensure your firm is staffed with the right people, fostering a business that can eventually run without you!

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PS: Whenever you’re ready… here are the fastest 3 ways we can help you fix and grow your accounting firm:

1. Download our famous Wize Freedom Strategy Map for FREE - Find out the 96 projects every firm owner must implement to build a $5M+ firm that can run without them - Download here

2. Need to Hire right now? Book at 1:1 FREE hiring assessment with our WizeTalent recruiters to help find your next best employee locally or offshore – Click Here

3. Book a 1:1 Wize Discovery Session – Spend 30mins with our Wize CEO, Jamie Johns, a $7M firm owner who is ready to give you his entire business plan to build a firm that can run without you – Find out more here

Wize Mentoring:

From Wize Mentoring is The Wise Guys Podcast, a show about accounting and bookkeeping practice owners and the many stories, lessons, and tips from their experience of transitioning from a time- poor practice to a business that runs without them. I hope you enjoy and subscribe.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

Well, let's kick it off for today. We've got a great topic that's hiring tips to create a team that can excel your business into growth. And I guess the key word here is growth and not just treading water, because if you're just going to keep desperately hiring, it'd be a lot worse than just treading water. We want to build a team that can actually help grow the firm. So today is going to be all about practical tips. We're going to go through how exactly you should be able to approach the hiring process, deciding on which person you need to hire. And look, even if you've come across this before, it's so important to reiterate and just compare to your firm's SOPs and hiring process. If you're missing anything from today, okay, and just to reiterate around people about creating deep and narrow teams, hiring A players, and micro- training the managers. So for hiring tips.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

So you know, oftentimes what we find is firms who are looking to hire sort of just do it out of feel, right from when they decide they need to hire to the going through the whole hiring process and even after onboarding that hire themselves. It's largely an undocumented process and owners, or employers, or client managers are kind of relying on their feelings. There is really no formal process around them. But what we found is, if you implement proper systems around it, if you follow proper framework around it, what we're trying to do is reduce your chances at a mishire. Okay, and we used to go for a worksheet analyzing the cost of a mishire and roughly speaking it's about four times the annual salary of a mishire and roughly speaking it's about four times the annual salary of a person. If you account for the fact that in the process that bad hire might lose clients, that will be way more than their salary to begin with. But if they lose clients, if they make your firm morale drop and other people leave or they simply just can't do the work and the managers have to go over just to get them to normal productivity.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

So a lot of the times people make a bad hire and then they go into a sunken cost fallacy where I have to keep dumping time into this person to solve them when the problem, to begin with, was that person just wasn't right when the problem to begin with was that person just wasn't right and someone who knows all about it. Jamie, you know I really want to get your insights around hiring tactics. Okay, like a large part I hear from working with firms is it just sounds really emotional and, yes, by this point, we're kind of educated on this, we need to implement systems, we need to have hiring guides and follow that. But it's just that emotion that we can't take away, like, oh, I really like that person and then they end up wrong. They end up wrong, our hunch is wrong and we haven't tested them, we haven't put them through the right selection process to get the right person. So take us through what a good hiring process should look like for a firm and any tips you have for firms to implement that.

Jamie Johns:

Let's start with the two most important things, everyone. If you can answer these two questions, you'll be able to grow your firm and get to work one day a week. So let's listen up. Everyone turn your volume up.

Jamie Johns:

Okay, listen everyone turn your volume up.

Jamie Johns:

Okay, listen. Now the very first thing is as a firm owner or a senior point manager. For that, you need to know when to hire right. You can't just like shoot from the hip and say, oh yeah, I'm busy, I need to hire right? You don't do it that way, I used to do it that way. That's the wrong way. So, first and foremost, you need to understand a capacity planner. Okay, so the capacity planner is 101 in terms of hiring, so it should be the trigger that helps you determine when to hire. That's the first thing.

Jamie Johns:

The second thing, once you understand like when you don't have enough capacity and you need to hire is who do you need to hire? And Ed Chan would always refer to that as the resource mix, right? So let's go through it real quickly. Do you need a finder? Do you need a minder or a grinder?

Jamie Johns:

Getting that resource mix right within the team is very important because you want the right people doing the right work, and that can be a challenge, but you can do it. The smaller the team is right because I started out by myself and then hired a person and hired a person. The smaller the team is, the more hats an individual will wear. So you have to realise that as your fee base grows within the firm, certain people have to take off certain hats. In other words, they have to delegate and let go of certain work and not be a control freak.

Jamie Johns:

So when that second question arises well, who do you need to hire? If we go on a little bit deeper, we need to understand, you know, do we need to hire a client manager or do we need to hire someone who's like a senior production manager, or do we need to hire, for example, like a senior bookkeeper or a senior accountant or an intermediate bookkeeper or intermediate accountant? So that's really the second question, to give you context, and if you can continually successfully answer those two questions and implement those two questions, you'll be very much likely on the path of growing your firm and also, you know, importantly in that is helping people achieve their career goals. So let's not forget that when we hire we can obviously go to the marketplace, but it's very good as well if we can promote or hire internally.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

That's something I wanted to touch on as well, Jamie, because given how difficult it is to even attract attention from ads nowadays, it feels like back then. You just put a bit of bait on a rod and then you get a bite, and at least you get some decent bites. But the demand is so crazy right now that firms are finding it harder to also differentiate themselves and put more effort into selling themselves. So you know, let's say they get the emotional part underway. They can answer the capacity planner. How do we bridge that gap? Like these firms, what can we do better to sell ourselves to these candidates and get some bites on our ads?

Jamie Johns:

Well, a couple of sort of questions there, Thomas, but to answer the first one is about, say, hiring or promoting internally is to sit with each staff member and just and it takes time but understands, like, where they'd like to be in five years time, what is their career goals, and a lot of the time they may have never thought about it. Every you know human beings are the most complex creatures on the planet. So people may not have an exact answer right now, but at least you need to plant the seed and say, well, in five years time you know what would you like to be doing. And they might say, well, I really love what I do right now. They might tell you that. Or they might say, look, I'd really love to be a senior accountant. Or they might say I'd love to be a client manager. So first and foremost, you need to document what it is that they want and then work out whether the firm can help them get to that career goal. Because, let's face it, if the person's career goal is going this way and the firm is going that way, you know you want goal conjure or you want the goals to be aligned. In that sense, yeah, that's sort of about, like that internal promotion thing.

Jamie Johns:

The second part of your question was about well, how do we attract talent. You know, let's give this context for a minute. I think the unemployment rate is at a generational or a 50-year low. Right, that's big time, you know. Is it competitive? Yes, it's very competitive, and not only in Australia. You know, wise men are routinely talking to people from around the world. It's global. It's globally, you know if you are someone in Canada, it's the same thing. If you are someone in the US, it's the same thing.

Jamie Johns:

It's difficult to find a startup, and it's always been difficult. But when you've got the lowest you know level records of low unemployment, it's even more difficult as well. And a lot of economies, you know, are booming and hence they keep trying to put interest rates up to to calm the economy down. That's another story. So what do you do to attract it? Yeah, so attracting the right talent is simply a marketing exercise. It's absolutely a marketing exercise, and one of the best ways to do it is to make sure that your advertisement is structured right, which, Dani and Krizz and they know that we've spent hours on this, you know like. We have like a set point, step- by- step sort of advertisement, you know marketing piece that when you do go to advertise you know part of that is. We do encourage firm owners to do their own video, Thomas, as well yes a lot of people said to me, why do that?

Jamie Johns:

And the reason was, like two or three years ago, when we started um, you know, wise talent. I asked a lot of candidates, both here and overseas. I said, why did you apply for that job? And they said, well, you know, I saw Jeremy in the video and he looked like someone I could work for, you know. Or I saw Deb in the video and, you know, that person looked like a Danderworth person, someone that I can relate to, someone that I could work for.

Jamie Johns:

And, essentially, people will obviously apply for the job for a lot of reasons, but at the end of the day, you're selling you, you know, like Peter's selling himself. So, as weird as that might sound, that's because you're in a people industry. There's that old saying, which is quite true People don't leave firms, they leave them, leave their leaders, you know. So people want good leaders, they want to be led, and no one's perfect, but that's just the way it is. So, yeah, you've got to be good at advertising and, Thomas, you have to sort of say in the video, for example well, why should I work for Thomas? Thomas, you know I'm going for 50 other jobs, why should I work for you, and you've got to have an answer.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

Yeah, you've got to be. You know, I've been in interviews where you know it's so important to emphasise those intangible aspects, right, like I've seen some interviews where I might bring up the team NPS like, okay, we're offering this, but did you know I can pretty much ensure that you're going to be in a happy place because I've been measuring it. You know, end up attracting people that just leave for money and they will leave for more money when it comes up.

Jamie Johns:

But if they love tangible aspects, they would retain the right so it's part of the overall picture, of course. But you know, at the end of the day, I think from my research that people buy into you. You're selling you, so that's the first thing. And so, yeah, to attract candidates you need good marketing, you need good, good advertisement, you need a competitive salary, competitive benefits, and Dani and Krizz at Wize Talent, you know we're continually sort of updating that with the moving marketplace.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

So that's across all the different countries that we work with, for example, Something that struck me there as well is that we're seeing a lot of conversation around firms trying to solve this by exploring other countries because firms are finding it's convenient to go to the Philippines. It's like a known source of hiring. And then, yes, you found that most senior accountant salaries in what we might call labor arbitrage countries they're all sort of coming to an equilibrium or like a mean. That's like a sort of mean for a senior accountant all across the world, and going to a place where it might have less competition could possibly be a solution as well. Jamie, could you expand on that? Because it feels like uncharted territory, it feels scary. Going to a place where there might be less competition could possibly be a solution as well. Jamie, could you expand on that? Because it feels like uncharted territory, it feels scary. We talk offshoring in the Philippines. It feels like second nature.

Jamie Johns:

It feels like I'm hiring in Australia. But if you're talking about hiring in Indonesia. Yeah Well, the biggest thing that drives it, Thomas, is this time zone. So Indonesia is a little bit further across from Australia in terms of the Philippines, but firms tend to go with a course of least resistance if you like. So the Philippines has been great because it's on similar time zones and if you ask people to work all through the night forever, it's proven it has effects on your health long term when they're doing the midnight shift or whatever, the graveyard shift, you know. So essentially, Thomas, I think, probably for more junior staff, particularly when you're training them, you know like it's better if they can be on. You know similar time zones, that's for sure.

Jamie Johns:

And, as we've seen as well in the US and Canada, they're slowly starting to hire from Mexico as well, and as Wize as well. So you know, and generally, as a rule of thumb and I forgot any American friends here, but you know generally Americans have been sort of a little bit behind in terms of the adoption of cloud technology in New Zealand, and Australia has been quite advanced and even quite advanced with offshoring. So that's a generalization. So I think in Canada and the us. You know they're sort of rapidly catching up now and part of that play will be Mexico as well because Mexico has got the same population as the Philippines essentially, essentially the same cost, structure of GDP, and that type of thing. So with the more senior staff who are trained, for example, you can have anyone anywhere. For example, Brenton, who's our CEO, is in Ireland. We've got Claudia in South America who's part of our marketing team. So once people are well-trained they can operate from any country. Essentially, the overlap of time is not essential in that sense.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

I'm really curious about that because I also hear questions from firms about this. But is the fact that you know the team is getting built up by people from different countries. What sort of things should we keep in mind in making sure that the firm has a? Does it keep its fit? You know, like there's clearly a certain person that works with the firm, that fits in with the firm. But what sort of emphasis should we put on that? I know, if they're, maybe if a person is just production and they're just grinding, that's not too much of a big deal. But you know eventually where those people might become production managers and they have to manage someone who comes from a different country.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, essentially, you want everyone connected. You know, like just, for example, Brenton, our CEO, you know he regularly has a routine of meetings with Sammy, you know, with Selena, with our marketing team. So I guess the thing that ties it all together is the meeting rhythm and routines. And so even the Wize team, you know, would relate to that as well. So you know, we've got Sohail in India, so it's just a matter of catching up, making sure everyone you know knows what their KPIs are.

Jamie Johns:

Thomas, as well, as you doesn't want to micromanage people. Yes, there's nothing worse If you can just sort of give people, once you delegate certain tasks, you know, just tell them what their target is, tell them what their target is, tell them how many hours they've got to do them, how many hours they got to do, how many sales they need to do whatever. Give them the tools to achieve the goal and then get out of their way 100 if they need help or coaching. Once you do catch up and review their performance and you know if they're not hitting the targets, then you know it's not a non-blame and say, well, how can we do this together? How can we fix this? Why didn't we get this job done on time? Do you know why aren't? Aren't we hitting our sales targets? Do we need more of a campaign? Do we need a better sales technique? You know if that's in sales.

Jamie Johns:

So you've always got to continually focus on continuous improvement and not in non-blame. You've got to micro-train. Don't micro-manage. There's no easy way. You know, a lot of the times firm owners say to me oh well, well, I can't find that qualified staff. And you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, you've got to find people, you've got to invest in people, you've got to delegate, you've got to make the time. You know that's how you move forward. Is it easy? No, it's not easy, but it's only one way forward and you want to. You know, ultimately you're trying to build a business and build a team. So you've got to invest in people and I know it sounds like a cliche, but it's so important. You know. And that sort of brings me, Thomas, to when you do find the right people.

Jamie Johns:

You know what you want to look for is three things. Number one, the foundation, honesty, integrity. You've got to consider what is integrity, and honesty. You know what's five things. It's what a person thinks, what a person thinks what a person writes, what a person says, what they say and what they do. And then the fifth one is can someone like a referee confirm the first fall? That's just essential, you know.

Jamie Johns:

But if you're just going to sort of hire and shoot from the hip without testing those things, you'll get anything. You know, and this is even what Warren Buffett promotes hire people that you can test and put through an array of tests if you like. That checks those five things, and particularly the last the referees. Um, that's extremely important. And then the other layer to that is their responsiveness to energy. How fast do they respond? What's their energy like? Because when they work for you, you'll get the same thing. Finally, some people might think first is skills and experience right? That's the last thing we look for in the process because you know, Warren Buffet has that in that quote. He says if you find someone who's really really skilled and really experienced and really energetic and really responsive, but they're, they don't have any integrity, you know he says like run to the hills you can't do anything with them.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

Yeah, you can't do anything with them they get them a workflow to manage. They'll just tick something off and it's not actually done. Yeah well, you can't even believe them, can you?

Jamie Johns:

So those three pillars are essentially what you need to hire: honesty, integrity, energy, and responsiveness, and then skills and experience, and if you can do your best to test those three things. It's not an exact science. No recruiting company in the world can sit there and say you know, we will hire every person perfectly every time. Oh, that's crazy. I mean human beings, the most complex creatures on the planet, let's face it. But you're better off having a system, and you know it's like James clear in his new book I saw at the airport, the other atomic habits. He says you'll always fall to the level of your systems.

Jamie Johns:

You'll always you've got to have systems and processes in your business and you'll only rise to the level of them so well. So yeah, hiring is extremely important when you're growing your firm. You need to master it as much as you can. Have a mythology.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

Use those three steps this is something that Kristy said one time. It really stuck with everyone here. It's what happens if we invest in people and they leave in us. They leave us right, like you put time into someone and go oh damn, they're gone but the other. The inverse is what if you don't train them and they stay? That's? I've seen that quote. Yeah, if you don't train them and they leave, that might be better than if they did stay yeah, it's just a requirement to build a team.

Jamie Johns:

You've just got to get used to it. And over the years, you know I had lots of people leave. I think I've got like 45 people at an entire Sky. You know group these days. What did it go perfectly? No, of course, it didn't go perfectly, you know. But when I was being mentored by Ed and I'd get disheartened and someone would quit you know it might be a client manager to leave or an accountant or someone to leave you know Ed would just say well, get back on the horse, try again, because it's not perfection, it's progress. Have another, go, try again. What can you learn If someone leaves the firm or the business? Do an exit interview. If you get the time, do an exit interview. Say what could have done better is always be willing to learn. Every time there's a problem that you've got guys. Always be willing to learn, because next time you won't do that. You know there'll be always the 1% of that you're after every time.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

Yeah, I wanted to ask. Another question that a lot of us have been thinking of is how long it takes to find if a person is suitable. Like, okay, six months probation is a like a contractual thing, so we've got the space for it, but should we be able to tell if a person is going to work or not in a week or two, like it shouldn't take too long to figure out if someone is not the right fit. So how long should it take? And what are we looking for in someone who's just not working out? Otherwise, we end up in that oh, oh crap. I don't want to go through all that hype again. I want to sink the cost fallacy and just accept it.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, three to six months. Yeah, yeah, three to six months. Ed would always say you know, you'll find out what someone's like in the first three to six months, what they're like. But coming back to the hiring process, I love the saying that we have Dani and Krizz. It's act fast, hire slow. You know, because when you're dealing with these candidates and this is the biggest error that I've seen myself, but also whether you're a senior client manager or firm owner is slow to respond to candidates communication. You cannot be slow to respond, like when we say slow if you're not answering the email to the candidate within the day. You're slow because they'll be talking to five other firms, yeah even I'm guilty of this Dani.

Jamie Johns:

So the point is yeah, act fast, hire slow, act fast. The highest low process is following the process. Don't skip a process, don't skip a step, because then you're maximizing. You know what we call a mishire and that just wastes everyone's time, money, and effort. To me so, yeah, I just wanted to say that too.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

100%. No, that's definitely part of it. Acting fast that's something we all struggle with, you know, being in our own firms and then not finding the time to act fast, not knowing if I need to be acting at all, and going crap. That person's been doing nothing for three months. Who's been? Yeah, where was the oversight?

Jamie Johns:

I think the other thing is too like coming back to what Dani and Krizz does as WizeT alent. What is formulated is to make sure your decision to hire right is based on the candidate's scorecard. Do you want to touch on the candidate scorecard and the importance of that? Because there's those three areas you might recall, Dani, but if someone's really high in skills and experience and high in engine responsiveness, but they're low on integrity and honesty, you know like the candidate scorecard is just that non-biased fact-checking system, isn't it?

Dani Bray:

Yeah, it takes the emotion out of things because someone could interview so well, but if they don't have the skills or what we're looking for basically, then this scorecard will be able to determine and it's also good because with the testing stage, you don't want to be testing every single candidate that comes through so this scorecard will be able to determine whoever's got the highest score. You know that's the person to put through to the next stage.

Jamie Johns:

Because in the interview I think because we're human, it's like, oh geez, I really like that person. Or the other person might be like, oh, I didn't like that person, right, and I don't know how many times Ed Chan told me he said, Jamie, don't judge a book by its cover. I think I was a people person, I was just like everyone, you know. Oh, you're hired.

Jamie Johns:

And then other people are like you know no good, when they're probably like they mightn't talk much, they mightn't say anything in the interview because they're nervous. But you find out because of the testing that they're absolutely fantastic. You know, just because you don't like their mannerisms or whatever they might just be a minder grinder.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

They might not be that charismatic finder.

Jamie Johns:

Yeah, they might be shy. Some people are extremely shy. I know that for a fact.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

People are like I don't want to talk to clients, I just want to get work done and review it. I mean, that's really good for a production manager, you know, just because they're not charismatic.

Jamie Johns:

But there's a lot of little tips. We probably started the discussion with tips, but you know another one is to watch out for job hoppers. You can pretty much sort that out from the CV and why they keep changing jobs. And you know reference checking is just so, so important. And you know not that it's like their mates or their peers. You know it's got to be someone who's had the authority or power to hire and fire them. There are all these little traps, right, but if you don't ask the right questions it's like a classic, particularly for a firm owner. You just want people to be truthful, you know, do you want to run your own business? I love that question.

Jamie Johns:

I remember years ago when I'm going back 20 years now, but I went to a massive firm and the guy asked the partner asked me, Jamie, when you're on your own, do you want to run your own business? I just looked and I said yeah, that's my absolute dream. He still hired you. Well, what happened is I didn't get the job right, I think okay, but what happened was, in the end, their senior person in the computer department, my NYOB, right, he resigned. So they rang me up and basically I was the only candidate that fitted, so they had to give me the job.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

But they just don't know how much of an important role that was, because today that's just the journey you know.

Jamie Johns:

But you know any firm, including Sky Accountants. You know when you sit in and say to people whether they want to be and what they want to do, sometimes people say to you they want equity, they want it, and so you should have a career path for that. So you should have an answer for everything because that's the way the world is.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

Yeah, if we don't. If there's a vacuum, people just fill it up with whatever is convenient for them, and that might not necessarily result in a win-win situation between everyone's policies and procedures and for every, almost every question that you know you get thrown at.

Jamie Johns:

that's the beauty of wise, because when you work on your business, you end up having a policy for literally everything, and that's why the music I've started working with Ed because Ed seemed to have an answer for everything and like the answer that was, you know, the right answer because he'd been there and done it.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

And always a lot simpler than you were expecting, like, oh okay, I was overthinking it.

Jamie Johns:

We need this little black book of Ed that we always talk about, but he's got so many songs and that's what we're talking about conversation around hiring today.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

It's multifaceted In fact, there are probably a thousand different facets to it, and Dani, you've been so great to be able to contribute and share your insights into what makes a great hiring process and what you look for in a candidate. But tell us about Wize Talent and how that can help firms build up their team.

Dani Bray:

Yeah, thanks, Thomas. So yeah, with Wize Talent, we have like a 44-step hiring process that we would take our clients through. So we're covering everything from job description right through to job offer letter and contract and everything in between, and we've also got like an applicant tracking system. So this is a great way for us to keep track of everyone who's coming through and where they're actually seated. You know, are they in the interview stage?

Dani Bray:

The reference check stage, with our interview guide, goes for about an hour, so it's a pretty full- on process and everything. And then, after every interview that we do, we do the scorecard and we debrief and see if this person should have proceeded to the next stage. And then my favorite one is our reference check stage. So this is where we use a system called XREF. So this is where we find out if someone has integrity issues. So, unfortunately, we've had candidates in the past who have tried to be their own reference. So they've created an email address, tried to be their own reference, and then this system picks up on it. So it's a really good system. And then, of course, we have to test the candidates as well to make sure that they have the right skills. So, yeah, we help you through the entire process.

Thomas Sphabmixay:

It really is end to end, isn't it, Dani? I constantly come back and I really appreciate the fact that I've been able to come to Wize Talent even for the administrative division, six staff, the accounts division, seven staff, and even D2 marketing staff In fact, all my greatest marketing staff have come from you. So thank you so much to Wize Talent and I'm sure we have had happy customers plenty in Wize here today on Wize Talent. So feel free to reach out to Dani if you want to book a meeting with her to talk about your team and what you need to look for in building up your team thanks for tuning in.

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