Episode 7: Testing Potential Hires - For Grinders & Minders Role
How do find the right people for the right role?
In this episode of The Wize Guys, Brenton Ward, Jamie Johns, and Ed Chan talk about narrowing down candidates for your next hire can be a daunting process.
Let us give discuss different types of testing options out there, to help you find the ideal team member for your firm. Whether it's online timed work tests, sample tasks, or personality tests, you'll hear what the best options are for you and your team.
Timestamps:
0:34 - Why attitude is everything
1:28 - ROLES: Grinder vs Minder
2:02 - TIP: Get the context
4:12 - How to measure productivity
6:21 - Factors to consider when hiring
8:39 - Are personality and communication testing worthwhile?
12:22 - The importance of people in building a business that runs without you
13:23 - The ideal timeframe to give a job offer
Quotations:
“So attitude is everything. Put them through the toughest tasks that you can put them through, and put them through as many things as you could get them to do. And if they still come out of that with the right attitude, you're somewhat more likely to get the right person.” Ed Chan
“ I think the personality testing works a bit better for the mind or finder rather than the grinder…Speed isn't as essential in the mind or finder role. It's more about a people person communicating, knowing when to talk to a green person, compared to a blue person…So the personality test testing works better with the mind, the finder than it does for the grinder.” - Ed Chan
“They all say they can do the job, but you know, when they put their definition of being able to do it and your definition of being able to do it completely differently. So I get three tasks and I get them to do three tasks.” - Ed Chan
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“They all say they can do the job, but you know, when they put their definition of being able to do it and your definition of being able to do it completely differently. So I get three tasks and I get them to do three tasks.” - Ed Chan
Ed Chan: What happens is that the people that have the right attitude. For example, nothing is too much trouble. You've thrown a hundred things at them to come back to you with a hundred things is not as it's still as enthusiastic about getting it to you as the first thing they have, this attitude of nothing is too much trouble. Then guess what? They're going to be like that for your clients as well. You want someone that's going to have, have the right attitude that nothing is too much trouble when it comes to your clients. But if you have the other way where you've asked them a few things and I grumble about getting it to you, then they're going to be like that with your clients. And you don't want that kind of a person. So attitude is everything. Put them through the toughest tasks that you can put them through, and put them through as many things that you could get them to do. And if they still come out of that with the right attitude, you're somewhat more likely to get the right person.
Brenton Ward: Yeah. Let's just put this up guys between grinding roles and mining roles. So we're covered off on attitude. And then just to get a little bit more specific, Jamie, on some of the tools that you use, because we've got a few questions on what sort of tools and platforms to use on the skill side of thing and the, and testing productivity, what would you suggest as the tips then?
Jamie Johns: Yeah, the tips there, I think for accountants and bookkeepers, you know, we've been using a camp test that goes by, they're obviously based out of New Zealand, but they have an array of accounting, bookkeeping tests. I think around five countries now. So those tests cover all the accounting books and bookkeeping questions right out to the level of being a child of the accountant. And not only that they're timed as well.
So in terms of those tests, they're being quite good. The sort of tip there is to get context. I often say to all the firm owners I'm dealing with is you can do the tests yourself and you can do them for free. Obviously, you can do the tests yourself when you get the candidates' results, you'll have an understanding of where they are at. And even better than that, if you get down to two or three candidates, test two or three of them, and put them in a spreadsheet side by side, there's like a spreadsheet. You can do that in the bowl. Again, that gives you context because context is everything. To just someone in Ireland. It's very hard to see sort of where they're at. So account test, as one for administration staff that is, they've been used at Sky there's test dome, you can have a look at that. It's called testoni.com. There's also gorilla testing. And some of those tests are really good for administrative and reception. So around grammar, just service levels or reception sort of thing. So there are some other tests you want definitely want to make, like Ed said, put them through the test.
And I always ask people to do the test when I've chosen the candidates. I always do that face-to-face. And so if I get a good candidate, I can say that their attitudes are good. Once they've jumped through a lot of the hoops, I'll ask them to do the test face-to-face and then they know that you're committed and you'll see whether they're committed or not as well. So there are some things around the productivity Brenton because you must test people.
Brenton Ward: Yeah, Just on that as well. Everyone who was listening to the accountant test, they are actually a Wize expertise partner. So if you go into your online volts on Wize Mentoring and go to wise expertise partners, there's a special offer from the account test guide for Wize members.
Let's move to the minder. Then how do they different
Ed Chan: Before we go into the minder? Can I just add to what Jamie said on the grinder?
The kind of people that we want as a grinder, you now industry's different to the accountants that you want in a commercial firm or public service, not the people that we're looking for as a grinder has to have speed, right? So you've got those three things. You've got the attitude. And we, we talked about that with grow grinder. So you need the attitudes. So we talked about that, put them through hell with the, what you need back from them. And then you've got to then look at their skills because they often tell you they can do this and they can do that and they can do this. And I can do that. But what I do is II get them to do some jobs so I can see whether they can actually do the job or not. As I said, they all say they can do the job, but when they would, their definition of being able to do it. And your definition of being able to do can be completely different. So I get three tasks and I get them to do three tasks.
And then the last thing is in our industry, accountants have to be quick. So if they're taking an hour to do something, when somebody else takes 10 minutes to do it, it's costing you three times as much for that person. So then we measure how fast that they've taken to do that, to do those tasks that you've asked them to do now. As a grinder, there's no way to hide attitude. They've shown you. They can do it by actually doing three tasks and you've measured how fast they've got it done. That is the best way in my view, after many, many, many years of managing and hiring people, when it comes to the grinder, to the person that does the work, you want someone that can do it very, very quickly. And as I said to you in the beginning some accountants are not suited to our industry. So not all accountants are suited to our industry. And often they go off and work in a comment or a commercial firm and our speed isn't an issue. But for us speed is everything.
I just wanted to make sure that I emphasize that when, when you're looking and you're in your recruiting a grinder.
Brenton Ward: Thanks for that, Ed.
Let's move on to testing for a minder, Jamie. So again, we've spoken about the attitude piece, but then it comes down to looking really at the interpersonal skills and communication skills. So can you touch on that a little bit for us?
Jamie Johns: Yeah. And this is really important, particularly if you've got with the minder role, let's say your production manager and even the client managers often when I'm doing the recruiting, all ask, have they had direct reports before, have they managed people and then delve into the sort of if you can, and sometimes it's difficult to get the information and often you can get this information from reference checks. So when they organize their own reference checks, you can ask the referee, how do they manage people? And I did they have much turnover while they are in that job with the people that were supervising, it's sort of a different level to a grow under.
Obviously, because you starting to manage people and you're trying to work out how well they can manage people. And particularly, some people, you can give them the staff members, the team members, but they had done in the guide you with them. And I ended up with Ed calls, a paid audience, you know, and they can't delegate. It's so critical that someone in this mindset, in this role as a minder and even a client manager will drive with the leadership to do the daily huddle, you know, of have been and seen people where they're sitting there and doing nothing, particularly with offshore staff, out of sight, out of mind. And it's a global world now.
So even when you've got staff in the office of see people where they really need help and they're just not getting it because the person who's in charge of them doesn't have a focus around, or I've got a team, I've got a team of people deliver the service.
Again, it's so easy, in this role to have people control it. And I just won't delegate, they'll sign themselves off quicker, but just do it myself. And so they're the sort of questions that you need to drill down into, even when you're looking at their, their references. Cause sometimes the testing around, actual tasks and the technical side won't reveal this, some of that psychometric testing can help with this. I'm not a massive fan of that, but of it, some of it can show whether we're inclined to be more engaged with team members and working in a team than just by ourselves.
Brenton Ward: Ed, just on that point, the personality testing. ‘Cause, we always get people asking about which personality tests to use. And I remember early on in Shannon Nayla you guys almost built out your own personality assessment. Where do you stand on that today in terms of personality testing candidates?
Ed Chan: I think the personality testing works a bit better for the mind or finder rather than the grinder. The grinder for me is just those three things. If they pass those three things, then they can have two heads. It doesn't really matter because they're all production orientated, but when it comes to mind or it's more of the personality and the people skills and the ability to communicate, I just have three things. Obviously, it starts off with attitude. Then I just asked a whole lot of technical questions that I have to have the ability to answer, all the technical questions, like explain to me, how do you explain to a client when, you know, you've shown a hundred thousand dollars profit and you said to them that the textbook is 30 grand, but they've got no money in the bank. You have to be able to explain to the client where their money is and that a D has a different level of command of English or command of communication compared to the grinder where they've just said, can I have your, can you send me, send me in your missing bank statement? So it's a different level of communication. So I asked them a whole lot of questions about, you know, explain division seven a and explain how you'd explain to the client that they've got a debit loan account, but in layman's terms.
The speed isn't as essential in the mind or finder role. It's more about a people person communicating, knowing when to talk to a green person, compared to a blue person. A blue person is more focused on numbers, and a green person, is more art people are in tow. It, so you can always tell when you're talking to a blue or a green person when you ask them, how was your day? The blue person says, yes, it was good. And then he's, he wants to get stuck into it. The green person will say, yeah, it was great. I pick my kids up and drop them off the weather's great. They liked to talk about things to do with people. And so that means there's a different way to communicate to a green as to post or blue person. With a blue person, you focus on the numbers, but with a green person, you just say, ‘Your profit is this and your taxes, this, and then you go off and you talk about their kids.’ I was young Johnny school day to day. So you need to be able to connect that at that level where, and the person needs to have the emotional intelligence to be aware of those kinds of things. Whereas, a grinder just is focused on getting the work done very, very quickly.
So the personality test testing works better with the mind, the finder than it does for the grinder. But I'm like a little bit skeptical of them. I've only had 50-50 sort of success, but if you follow our, our system of recruiting and there's no way to hide, it just cuts to the chase and, and saves a lot of time as well. Because of a lot of these psychological testing, they go around and around and around and around in circles. And I just want, from my mind to these three things, I have to be able to answer the questions. I have to be able to respond to emails and phone calls. And I have to be people orientated and have to be technically knowledgeable, but not necessarily know how to do the work 80% because the last 20% I'm going to fill that role or the owner's going to fill that role. And that's it. That's all I look for.
Brenton Ward: Once we've gone through this testing, what's the next, very next thing you do to make sure you seal the deal comes back to acting fast. Are there any tips or tricks around this area of just making sure you secure that candidate?
Jamie Johns: Yeah. I'll just say the biggest thing that they responsibly, Brent and Mike, the mono on all phones, that if he gets so attracted to the next action or something, they will just lose the person. Like I didn't stress building, finding the right people and building it and its name and then getting them inducted and bedding is one of the most critical things you'll ever do to build your fan. It's all about the people, the people, the people ease ago. I think I've said it before. I used to be quite fanatical, but then, I was on team fanatical. So that's the mindset because you want to get to work, not to do the tax return or do the bookkeeping. Eventually, you want to go to work to build a business that does the bookkeeping and that does the tax return and it's the people that'll help you do it.
Brenton Ward: Just a quick question from Adam. Adam on that process from say the first interview to a job offer. How long do you normally allow for, in terms of timeframe there on average?
Jamie Johns: One week.
Brenton Ward: Yep. That's amazing.
Ed, before we get to any questions that, that period we're talking about between interviews and offer any, anything else to add there to seal the deal?
Ed Chan: Well, for me if you find the right candidates straight away, if I can get it all done and the testing done the everything done within a day, I'd offer it to them if I were the right person.
So I wouldn't waste too much time, but it generally will take about a week because you're going to have quite a few candidates come through. You've got to get them through all the testing, the questions. And then you got to try and decide who it is. And so on average, it is about a week. If you're going more than a week, then you're going to lose the candidate. There are times when it's gone much quicker because it was obvious who the right person was. And I just made the offer without having to waste any more time. So it's all different.