The Wize Way

Episode 56: Wize Factor Chat: Terry Chung - Factor 1

• Wize Mentoring for Accountants and Bookkeepers • Season 1 • Episode 56

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Episode 56: Wize Factor Chat: Terry Chung - Factor 1


“The key thing for us is that the Wize programs enabled us to be in control but not controlling.”

In this episode of The Wize Guys Podcast: WizeFactorChat with one of the WizeTribe members, Terry Chung, the Founder, and Director of Factor 1 Accountants & Advisers

Terry is one of the first members of the Wize community. Today, he shares why David, his business partner, and him continue their journey with Wize. Then, he highlights how Wize differs from other so-called mentors in the marketplace and the value of the program as their staff joins the Wize sessions.

Factor1 has grown over the years, from just 2 staff members to now having a team of 48 in different regions of Australia. Terry credits the help and guidance they received through the Wize Philosophies for this growth.

Terry also shares how transitioning roles from the firm has impacted his life ~ as a business owner, partner, husband, and parent. By having that little bit more free time, he’s now able to do other things and make his work more purposeful and meaningful.

Tune in to another inspiring episode to learn more about Terry’s success story, the importance of finding a mentorship program that truly works, and the value of investing in yourself and your team!


Timestamps:

0:00 - Intro

0:48 - Terry’s Wize journey

8:30 - How Wize Philosophies has helped Terry in growing their firm

15:51 - The importance of having more free time

20:48 - Listen to Terry’s Wize words


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Download the full transcript here.

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Wize Claudia: Thank you very much, Terry, for joining me today. 

As I said, we are looking for that WizeFactor and we think you have it. So I wanted to run through some questions with you to talk a bit more about you and your firm. I would like to start from the very first moment about your business. When did you start your business and since you come to Wize? How many years since you started? 

Terry Chung: Yep. So we started our business in 2015, in July. Just two partners. So we came out from a four-partner firm where goals weren't really aligned with ours. So starting 2015 with two partners, and I started from there with a small portfolio of clients. So it was difficult. It was hard, but we worked through it. With two, we grew from there through organic.

So our proposition worked with the marketplace and with our client base as well, and we just grew steadily from there, organically. It's been a journey. So now we're about just coming on 8 years. So from two, we've now got 40 last counts, 48 people working for us. 

Wize Claudia: Wow. 

Terry Chung: So, it's been a really enjoyable and heartbreaking as well as fulfilling sort of journey. 

Wize Claudia: I bet. 

What was the reason you started this business? Did you get it from some, like, from your family? Was it an inheritance or did you always know that you would have a firm? 

Terry Chung: Well, accounting-wise, no it wasn't inheritance. It was from studies. David's from the country. I'm from another state, so it was through studies at university, and then the pathway through the traditional pathways through an accounting firm. So it's always been on my mind to be a partner of a firm, so it's the holy grail. I say there's not always all joy, which a lot of people don't see. There's a lot of work behind it. So that's where we started in accounting. 

From my background, I started actually studying architecture. It’s a different field, a very creative field. So I can't say I'm a creative accountant, but it was a creative field. But during that time, it was a recession in Australia. Then having to find part-time work to support me was difficult. I realized I was still enrolled in commerce, majoring in accounting. So I returned to that. From there we started my career, all my studies actually. Then I got recruited into one of the largest firms in Hobart in my third year. So I was rolling from university to work straight away, and it was quite a firm, so a lot of skills were learned at that point in time. 

Wize Claudia: So it all unfolded. 

Terry Chung: So that's how I started, unfolded from there. I didn't have the foresight of thinking what would happen, how old am I now? I better not say, but 20-30 years down the track, I wouldn't have the vision of where would be there now. Then, I moved around from the top four through to commerce, or what I call industry through the strategy in the financial sector with major banks. One of the major banks, and then reverted back into public practice. And from there we decided to grow our practice. Well, joined the practice, and then we decided to grow our practice. 

Now, where Factor1 is that we wanted to be more contemporary with our approach and with some traditional values, but mainly focused on people and the core things behind what accountants should do, which is to be servicing their clients and their needs. So it's their best interest and with that philosophy, we've seen that we've grown quite substantially because we're meeting markets expectations as opposed to the other way where some accountants operate. But that's not for me to say. 

Wize Claudia: But yeah. That's great that you thought about that and that's how you grew. So I wonder now that you've grown to this point, you started in 2015, and then you started growing in 2015.

Terry Chung: I'd like to say it's gradual, but it's the first several years was a lot of work, and during those years we thought there's gotta be a better way of doing this. We're burnt out. We're tired. We'll continue peddling. There were client demands, there were family demands, et cetera. So to the point where, well, I won't say it was a breaking point. But I will say it was something that we needed to look for some external influences in our decision-making. So we reached out to the marketplace and we have been with a few other so-called mentors that provide that coaching. They were mainly from the sales side. So yeah, it was great. During that time, it was all about fixed pricing or work value add, value-based pricing and et cetera, which we didn't subscribe to as much because it didn't feel right for us. So we are more about getting a fair remuneration or payment for the services that we provide as opposed to value-based pricing and agreements, et cetera. 

During that time was the fad that was coming out of Australia, in the Brisbane area. Yes, it did work to a point in time, but we're also thinking about sustainability. So would it be sustainable for our client base, for our future client base for my lifetime? And I liken it to, it's like a sugar hit. Everyone gets wowed. They go great. They walk away. They're inspired. They're energized. But then several months, six months down the track and it'll dissipate. You're left to your own accord. That also did work in terms of putting us on the pathway of seeking further external influences on what we do and our operating model. 

So there were two things that we were very strong on in terms of what we felt would bring our firm forward. The first thing was service excellence, and the second thing was operational efficiency. Now, service excellence is fine. We talk to the salespeople. I'm an accountant and I know the true salespeople out there. They're talented. They've got some really innate skills, et cetera, that I don't have. So we learn from that. 

Wize Claudia: Exactly. 

Terry Chung: I'll never be a salesperson. We go, Oh, who else can we look for? Who else can we learn from? Who else has the experience? And that point in time in terms of our operational efficiency? I saw there was Ed Chan. So the question was, What drew me to Wize Mentoring? It was not Wize, ‘cause Wize was just starting off then what drew me to why was Ed Chan, the man, the story of him of his past time where he was in a similar position to us working ~ working hard, working around the clock and how he scaled and how we became. I think my facts might be wrong, we might need to fact-check this with Ed. But the Chan & Naylor brand was the fastest-growing accounting firm for five years in a row in the BIW.

Wize Claudia: I think that's true. 

Terry Chung: That's true. Yeah. So that sort of drew me to it. Then I saw he was the headline speaker at a conference and I made sure I was there. 

Wize Claudia: So that's how you got the picture. 

Terry Chung: Yeah, I've got many more to share with you as well. But that's where I saw him at a social event afterward, and that's where I started chatting with Ed and he handed me his card and that's where it started. 

So I didn't know Jamie then or anything about Wize Mentoring. I didn't know Brenton, other than what Ed told me. It was just starting up. So from there on, that was December 2018.

Wize Claudia: Yeah, very rarely. I think the very early stage of Wize. 

Terry Chung: So we're treating this as a journey. I know it's sometimes it's seen as a program to be undertaken. Then when you finished the program, it’s great, you've graduated. But we're taking this as a journey with us. We're probably way through it now. Have we taken a little bit longer than we should have probably, but have we got value? Yes, we have. 

So we're continually going with it and to the stage now that we're bringing our team members through. Because what that does is reinforces the message of the themes that we're pushing out to our crew and get them engaged with it. ‘Cause they don't wanna always hear from Terry and David, David being my business partner. Once they hear from an external person, someone that's been guiding and mentoring us, they Oh wow. And I say, Well, we've been telling you this all the time. They go, It's not new. And they go, Okay.

Wize Claudia: They weren't paying attention. 

Terry Chung: No. So we've got them included now in the Wize sessions. There are various sessions. So we're including them in, and we're seeing a lot of benefit from that as well. So we're spreading the good news about our operational model. 

So going back now, I didn't know much. We had a strategy meeting in February 2019 with Ed. So Dave and I jumped on a plane, went to Sydney, and saw Ed. We had a really good day of planning. We looked at numbers, we looked at our targets, we looked at capacity planning and all the things that accountants should do for businesses. We did it for ourselves and it all made sense. So we had a target there of certain dollars of revenue. I'm happy to say we're nearly there now, which back then I think was aspirational to get that target and probably within a fingertip reach. But so delighted that we're nearly there now. So we're now thinking about, Okay, we're nearly achieving that. What is our next thing? The next big thing that we've gotta prepare for? So that was back then 2019 Ed.

From then on it was hard work. So what's the saying? The appeal was a panacea for everything. Because Ed knew what we were going through ~ our pain points and our operational issues. First of all, what we did was, it wasn't have much to do with the Wize model, et cetera. It was all about putting out what I call, and possibly what Wize calls the bush fires or the higher level bush fires first to make the foundation. I wouldn't say it is solid, but able to be walked on. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. 

Terry Chung: Then through that time we put out the bush fires and it became solid. We got a lot of value from Ed as an advisor like he was on our advisory board. I think Jamie came on board later on as well and became part of our advisory board. So that's where at the early stage we got the true value from Wize. It's just their insights were priceless. Then we rolled through the Wize materials. I can't say that I've gone through every video. I can say I've gone through several, but the philosophies we've pushed through were, how do we say it, wide and flat in terms of operational structure. We had a pool of accounts to draw upon. 

So it was strategic that and it was one of the biggest decisions that we made. Yes, to engage Wize. The second decision was one of the hardest ones to do was to divide our portfolios. For example, my business partner David would have a portfolio, and there will be several accountants working on it, depending on the pool of accountants that were available. So whilst the portfolios were divided by partner, they weren't divided by team. 

Wize Claudia: Okay. 

Terry Chung: So there were a lot of difficulties to keep track of accountability, to keep track of workflow, and to manage performance. So the biggest decision was to divide the portfolio into teams. Once that was done, it was a hurdle that was achieved. Then we moved on from there in terms of metrics, et cetera, to the point where now we've got engagement surveys of our team members. I think it’s on a weekly basis that gives us insight into how happy and how engaged our team members are. Also hearing from them because they're the team members that have fresh ideas. So it is been brilliant in that case. The key thing for us is that the Wize programs enabled us to be in control but not controlling. I should put that in quotations ‘cause that's a Wize sort of Ed’s saying being control and not controlling. 

Wize Claudia: But you’ve adopted it. It works.

Terry Chung: Yeah. Well, I also used a term like this just this morning with my wife. She was going to have a discussion with a business mentor. I hope she doesn't mind me saying, and she said, she told me what she was going through, and I just went back and I said, now darling, I know you love expressing your views, but how about stepping back and seeking to be understood? I seek to understand before being understood. 

Wize Claudia: That's a Stephen Covey quote, right? 

Terry Chung: Oh, is it? 

Wize Claudia: Yeah, I think. 

Terry Chung: Oh, did Ed rip it off from Stephen Covey? Did he? He didn't tell me that. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. So Ed says that a lot. Seek first to understand, then to be understood.  

Terry Chung:  Well, Stephen Covey might've stolen from the good old Bible. ‘Cause my wife said to me, are you preaching to me now? 

Wize Claudia: That was good morning wisdom. 

Terry Chung: So that was the morning wisdom. 

The other thing that's beneficial in terms of the Wize program is yes, it's transformational. People that come into this thinking that it's gonna incremental changes are going to create something beautiful. It might take a lot of time, but being transformational and having an open mind will make bigger changes for the better. That's what our mindset's been. 

So the other thing is yes ~ the model, the procedures, the policies, the things that we've learned on the way they have helped and they've helped greatly. 

But the other key thing that was key to us and is still key, is developing our own language internally. So yes, we've drawn upon the Wize coaching and it's provided us with a lot of these terms that we use. But we've tweaked them, we've adapted them, we've molded them to what we use internally with us, and that's what makes us unique to ourselves and unique to the people that work with us. So some of these terms are great and we've played on some of them as well.

Wize Claudia: Oh, that's awesome. Like the emotional bank account and the name or things. 

Terry Chung: Yep, the thing Wize talks about is the no bypass policy. Some of those policies…

Wize Claudia: No blame policy. 

Terry Chung:  Yeah, no blame policy. But then we've extended it to say, Well, yes, there's no blame. No blame does not mean any consequences. So we've adopted it and we've tested it, in and out there on the floor. Then we bring it back and we adapted it a little bit for our purpose.

So that's where we were. That's a brief snapshot of our journey and that's where we're here today. Where we're here today is that we're in a good place at the moment. But then we're tomorrow where we're still looking at that big goal, that big thing for us to look at alongside that as we, I don't like using the term withdraw from the firm because it's not withdrawing from the firm. What's the better word to say it? As we transition to different roles. So the Wize model has helped us transition to different roles within the firm. David acts as the CEO, which means he could look at and focus on marketing and growth strategies. Whereas my role is more suitable to who I am, the operational side is in terms of operations, and quality production. So it compliments quite well with each other. So yeah, what's the next thing? Who knows? We along the journey too, where we talked to Ed about our initiatives. So apologies, I talk about Ed a lot cuz I've got a lot of appreciation. 

Wize Claudia: No, this is amazing. 

Terry Chung: He's a great person. 

Wize Claudia: Please continue sharing every bit of it. 

Terry Chung:  So what I mean, we talked with Ed advising us, and Jamie when he was involved as well, we talk about anything from strategic acquisitions and whether they suit our business and whether the time is right for it. For them, so the high level to the level of okay, do we recruit additional staff members? Do we have capacity? Who's the right person? How do we recruit right? So the things that have taught us are that attitude, ability, and capability are keys. You've just gotta have the people on the ground and test them out. So those three things, that's what's driven us through our backbone in terms of the way we recruit. That was even before the Wize recruitment side all started up. So coming back to key concepts and principles is what we enjoy. I think I've run out of things to say. 

Wize Claudia: Did you? Oh, I wanted to ask you something because previous to this you were just saying that you were talking about withdrawing from the firm and you don't like the wording. It's maybe not accurate for you. It's more like switching the role and probably stepping back from some divisions. So if you were to reduce your hours in the firm, does that excite you? Does that scare you? Do you like that? Do you dream of being able to step away more from the firm? Or do you enjoy the day-to-day, basically being in the firm? 

Terry Chung: No, I'm not a typical person. A lot of people think that. 

Work has defined me for so long that this is what I do. Some people might look for playing in extracurricular activities or other things. But work's defined me. I've thought about it 24/7 every day, most days. I can't say every day but most days. So, it's defined, you said, this is what I know, this is what I love, this is my passion. So do I want more time outside of work? A little bit. Yes, I do. Right. 

So the last I was joking with someone I said I was a negligent husband. Sorry, I negligent husband and an absent parent. 

Wize Claudia: Oh my god. Okay. Great joke. 

Terry Chung: Yeah, well I know it’s scary, but true. So on reflection, that's me. So this defines me and maybe not be a joke, but it's humorous. The team member goes, Oh, we'll make it through this week cuz it was a hard week. And I said, No, me being a negligent husband and an absent parent has been the last 20 years. 

Wize Claudia: Oh my god. 

Terry Chung: So, to answer your question is that yes, I'd like to not withdraw and have a little bit more time. Because I love doing this. I've got a big passion for others. I'd do it more if I could, but it's all about trade-offs. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. 

Terry Chung: It's a transition of roles to other things that I want to achieve. Something that I may find more enjoyable, but I still love numbers. I still love talking with clients, et cetera. 

Wize Claudia: That's perfect. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. It also depends on me is the period of my life. So I've got, there are fewer dependencies at home. Although there weren't in the past ‘cause I was an absent parent there, less dependencies on family life now whereby I could spend more time at work. So it's making the thing that we do at work more purposeful and with more meaning. The key thing that is in my mind about work itself other than withdrawing. 

Wize Claudia: How do you make it more purposeful like that? That's your thought. Like how do you make what we're doing more impactful in who we're working with? 

Terry Chung: Yep, that's right. 

Wize Claudia: Doing their numbers and doing their books is more than that. It's like helping them with their lifestyle, making them grow. 

Terry Chung: Yeah, that's right. It's like early practitioners. As an early practitioner, I go back and, and follow the theme. When you're an accountant and the holy grail to be a partner. To be a partner, you earn a lot of money. Unfortunately, that's not the case. So, as a young practitioner, that's what your thinking process is. But as I've grown and matured over the time of being a practice owner, you go there. There are a lot of pressures on. It's not even accounting. 

Wize Claudia: It's just a business owner’s possibility then the clients. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. There are a lot of stakeholders. There are other occupations that have more stakeholders. But in this case, it's about who are our stakeholders and, how we manage their expectations, and how we work with them really well to meet what they want. 

So every person here in our firm would have a reason why they're here. Whether it's for living, wages for living, or because they just want some social interaction or because they're on to create a path, to something else and they're in transition, fine. Or they wanna track with us because they just wanna work in a place which is enjoyable and something different for which they can't find anywhere else. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. 

Terry Chung: So that is where we're we're going through, a design piece at the moment to work out. Yes. collectively. What does that mean? What is that purpose collectively? Because everyone individually has them. As we grow with Ed's help, the firm is bigger than David, and myself now. So our values, the way that we operate, and what's important to us is becoming less and less meaningful in our workplace. 

We've gotta find out what is meaningful now. With employee surveys, discussions, and meetings, we'll define what's meaningful, not only just to each person individually but to each office that we have in each region. Hopefully, that bubbles up to a firm-wide meaningful, purposeful direction. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. Like the same identity firm-wide. 

Terry Chung: The old theories go about everyone's gotta be goal congruent. Now we might have similar goals. But we might have similar outlooks or aspirations, but everyone's different. So we need to cater to that. 

Wize Claudia: But yeah, it's, I think it's awesome that you're focusing so much on staff and making them happy, making them feel like they're working here for a reason and that they're basically content where they are.

Terry Chung: Yeah. That's been my journey as well ~ what does this mean for me? Once I've got clarity for myself. So if I have clarity, I can express clarity in terms of advising clients in terms of their situation. Sometimes it extends further than accounting. It’s not put upon them. But if the bar is for advice, then we're happy to assist in terms of just general guidance and business advisory. 

The whole journey with Wize, it's only beneficial if you go with it with the common word is open-minded, but we say, well what is open-minded? Well for us it's about being okay to be vulnerable to suggestions, being okay to accept other people's views, and being absolutely critical of our own processes. So that's one side of being open-minded for us. 

Then from that we need to be open-minded in terms of change and really have the faith that yes, there is a process in place that has the faith. If we implement change, we have the skill base to properly affect that change. So people talk about change management, and we think it's very key in terms of what we do not only in terms of process but in terms of people as well. So coming back to 2015, we just thought about how we do work. Just get through the work, head down, personal exertion, time, bum on the seat. And now from now we're thinking about, we now think on the system level. 

So the system we've got this thing that we, yes, we think about system level and ‘cause we're a firm that's currently operating multiple brands. We think about, well we think group first and then brand second. That's our mandate. I think about the system level is what we learned from Wize, what we've adapted, what we implemented what will go across the whole system to the whole firm. And hopefully, it works. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah, I think that obviously it's working and firms do go through rough patches and everything. But that's important. 

I was just going to ask you before you mentioned this if you read my mind completely. I was going to ask you if you felt like there was a mindset shift, and I can see that you definitely had one. Like you were more focused on production ~ how to get the job, like work out the door more efficiently. It's mainly about creating processes and how to keep people happy is also important, like clients and also the staff. And I think that's a big part of growth. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. It is. I hundred percent agree with you and the openness. Open-mindedness has to come with being able to change your mind. The mind shifts you mentioned. It was a shift in paradigm from where we were to where we were gonna do. It's like one of those aha moments to go ~ Okay, let's try this deep and narrow structure. Let's try the 7 divisions. Once there was a little taste of it, we go back for more. So we had the entree and it was good. It was fulfilling. It was enjoyable. It worked. We go back to the main. We're just at the talent dessert now where we could sort of look back and enjoy where we've come from and then walk out of the restaurant. But as we walk out of the restaurant, our team members are walking in the restaurant and they're starting to enjoy the entree and hopefully the mains and hopefully the desserts. So, whilst we're walking out, our team members are walking in. 

Coming back to your point yet has to be, it was a paradigm. I call it the paradigm shift, but being open-minded because until we get there until there's an acknowledgment that this is the operating model. This is the way to perform, this is the way that if I look forward 20 years and I'm still at my desk doing individual tax returns from source documents, I'm in trouble.

Wize Claudia: You're In trouble. 

Terry Chung: And we see that with a lot of people that had discussions with me about what do we do because they basically started a firm to buy them, secure them, their occupation, their job, as opposed to starting a firm to be able to expand and build a business. So that's the way that I'll look at it. 

Having a look at the landscape now at this point in time coming out of the Coronavirus pandemic sort of time timelines and we're seeing more and more people come out that are looking for, well there's more, more things to life than, than accounting. They're selling their practices or they're selling their fees. I could tell you one thing for sure. Now that is not us. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. I'm so glad to hear that. And I'm very excited about what's coming for you. I bet that there's more in store for you and more growth. Hopefully, you get more time back soon, very soon so you can enjoy doing outdoor activities, any other activities that you enjoy, even though work is your thing. I congratulate you for saying that many people might be kind of apprehensive about saying like, I do really, really enjoy this. Many people might point fingers at you and say, you're a workaholic and you really have to get out of that chair and whatever. But if you really come to work, that's my mindset, at least if you come to work every day and you enjoy it, it does technically not work. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. There's this saying where is it the same? Or, I've heard somewhere. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. Yeah. I think I took it from someone. We're just ripping quotes from everyone in this chat. 

Terry Chung: Yeah, I know. It's great. Well, why not? So, I'm not sure I change a lot of things and I say, why not? I mean yeah, why not compress, why not compress our learnings right? In a short period of time and gather what people have learned over their lifetime. I don't see a problem with that because life is finite. Our time here is finite. I wanna make the most of it. So I'm gonna learn from as many people as I can and bring it into us so that we could do everything now as opposed to later down the track and not have more wrinkles, and now here.

I had something in mind, but yeah, coming back to you, Claudia, what you mentioned about being busy at work. There's this thing and where that I saw that people glorify being busy. I think glorifying busy means it's good. It means you're successful, et cetera. They glorify and it's becoming probably less and less important for people. Because in the current environment, people value flexibility. Work-life balance has always been there, but it's now it's coming to the four flexibility, et cetera. But I don't think there's anything wrong with being busy. I won't glorify it.

Wize Claudia: Yeah. 

Terry Chung: But being busy for being productive and coming back to that purpose. If you're busy doing something that you've got a passion for and it's meaningful for you. Well, that's great. If it's in an accounting firm, it's even better. And if it's with some people and a cohort of people and a group of people that you enjoy working with, how fantastic is that? 

Wize Claudia: Absolutely. I agree with you. Great point. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. So that's what we're doing here and I'm hopeful. Is it a point of difference? Probably not for me to say. Is it something that we're working towards and that we're proud of? That's something I could say, Yes, it is.

Wize Claudia: Love to hear that. And I'm so happy to know that you've come a long way and that you've progressed pre-Wize and post-Wize, that you've worked so many great things with Ed. And I really hope that we can continue servicing you, even if you probably know the program back and forth, but happy to hear from your team, hopefully, they get to the desert and they're happy. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. I think if I may offer some suggestion or my views.

Wize Claudia: Yeah, of course. 

Terry Chung: Is that there are different people. I was quite deliberate in terms of explaining the journey because there are some people that may be at the start of the journey where some of those key concepts, et cetera, are great for them. Some of them are, there are at closer toward the end. Like us, some of them may have even passed it or someone they're looking for, not just the theory, ‘cause the theory's already been there and they know it maybe not a hundred percent, but most of it went through it. They know the theory. They're probably most of the way through implementation. But the value from the program still draws for us, still draws back to those key things that we learned along the way. Those key nuggets, those insights from Ed and from Jamie et cetera. Because I liken to this and I'll probably end with this ‘cause I'm just stumbling at the moment. 

Wize Claudia: No, but you're saying great things. I'm enjoying everything that you're saying. I'm really enjoying our chat. So continue. Please. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. So one of the things that I like and there's nothing out there in, let's say Australia at the moment, not that I know of. You've got a lot of people that, and a lot of people on the sales side. So, that hasn't been part of the accounting world. So you've got mentors that are promoted by other people that goes, Yes, do this, do these themes, do these quadrants, do these 90-day plans, et cetera. And it's great to a certain extent, but they haven't really been. 

So I was thinking about today, I was going, well what does that mean to me? If I was, if I had a cardiac arrest, so I had a heart attack, hopefully not. I don't wish it upon me, but in case I did. Neither of you neither. 

Wize Claudia: Okay, good, good to go, go with your example. 

Terry Chung: If I had a heart attack, would I want someone who knew how to do it? Because they've read a few books and said, yeah, just jump on. Just, just lie in the mouth and do a few compressions and they'll maybe you chuck a defibrillator on it and she'll be right. Or would you like someone that's been there, done it, did CPR, has blown in the mouth, has done compressions, has broken some ribs, has brought the life back? I know which one I'd want. That's my little wacky analogy that keeps 'em in mind in terms of what we do. We need to walk the talk and to walk the talk, we need to associate ourselves with people that have done it. Not people that have done some, celebrated it, showcased it, and walked on. 

Wize Claudia: Yeah. I completely get what you're saying. I've heard this because that's one of the catchphrases that Wize has, which is, yeah, we are accountants first, mentor second. And I think that I've been talking to WizeFactor members who've said the same thing. They said like I was in trouble. I was going through health issues. I was having mental issues. Would I wanna waste my time reinventing the wheel when I saw, for example, Jamie's story where he said that he was sick because he was stressed, and burnt out. So basically, would you want to learn from someone who actually was in your shoes at some point? Or someone who said they thought about how it would be to be in your shoes? I do agree with you that it's a huge difference. 

Terry Chung: Yeah. It is. And I do shout out to, I mentioned about Ed because, for me, this is key with Ed. And Jamie, who's done a brain dump on Ed. I know Jamie, I've got a lot of time for his top-like, but I also wanna do a shout-out to Tim who's helped us as well. And also Thomas who great mentor, of them.

Wize Claudia: I will pass it on. But thank you so much.