Episode 55: How to up skill grad accountants and bookkeepers to intermediate/ senior level in 12 weeks flat
In this episode of The Wize Guys Podcast, Ed Chan together with Kristy Fairbairn, one of the Wize Mentors is joined by TMS Eng Sivieng, our resource speaker for this session.
Eng shares her framework for developing staff and discusses her focus on training, as well as the challenges she has faced. The group also explores the advantages of choosing fresh graduates over junior, intermediate, and senior accountants. Tune in for valuable insights on staff development in accounting practices!
0:00 - Intro
0:59 - Eng Sivieng from TMS Financial Services
2:49 - WizeMarket: Practical Training Programs for Junior & Senior Accountants
7:30 - Understanding the framework and 4Ps
13:51 - How do find time in building a training framework
16:46 - Tips for training your people
21:59 - Why do you prefer fresh graduates over junior, intermediate, and senior accountants?
24:06 - How to be a successful practitioner?
"The process doesn't take long, but the preparation station normally takes longer." - Eng Sivieng
"You really have to [empower them] because they're very smart already. You have to be able to empower them to be able to bring out their goodness and talent." - Eng Sivieng
"It's okay to not know some things. If you'd open up and you speak up, you ask, learn more, you can gain more." - Eng Sivieng
"The more confidence they build, the more competence they have." - Eng Sivieng
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Kristy Fairbairn: We have a special presentation today that I think we're all going to benefit from, whether you're a bookkeeping firm or an accounting firm.
So welcome to today's session. We are looking at the recruit. This is a big one on how to recruit the right people, how to train them right, and not feel like you're wasting too much time in that training process. We can often have good people come along, but it's difficult to get them there. So this is a little bit about our special guest, Eng Sivieng.
Eng Sivieng: My name is Ang Si Young and I was born in Laos. I came to Australia in 1978 with no skills and no English. Basically, I can speak six languages. So English is my number six. When I first came to Australia, I can't speak English and it was really, really hard. I have to study really hard to get into uni and within 7 years in Australia, I graduated from Macquarie University and got my accounting degree which is I really proud of.
After that, I got a job in a chartered accounting firm working as a start with as a graduate and with no experience. Then worked for 7 years after that, I got married and decided to help our own accounting business. So I set up TMS Financial Services in 1993, which is a long, long time ago now, and working ever since up to now. I'm a sole practitioner and start the business from scratch and being through a lot of things and hard life. Now I have a bit of easy life because Thomas is taking over managing the business. And so I have more time now to do what I really like cycling, traveling, singing, music, tennis, and whatever that I miss out on before. I try to spend a lot of time making sure that my family is looking after me and now my two sons are both grown up so now I'm just sort of concentrating on my daughter. So, that's all about me. I am now a CPA, a SAL funds specialist, and a registered tax agent. So that's me.
Kristy Fairbairn: Wonderful. Oh look, that's great to learn more about you. You've accomplished a lot and I think it's a testament to the work that you've done in your firm, and we're all here because we want to create a firm that gives us the freedom to do the things that we love and enjoy and still run with successfully without us in it so much. So thank you Eng and Thomas leading the way on how to feel that freedom. It's great.
Eng, you've been working with Wize for the better part of this year on developing a technical and practical training program that you've been running for the last number of years in your own firm. Before we go into why you created this program or some of the results from it, what was the problem you were facing that led you to create your own program?
Eng Sivieng: Okay, well this is back like more than 20 years ago. Basically, I'm always constantly looking for staff and there's a lot of scarcity like it’s very hard to find staff. If I can find a senior accountant that experience and can do the job, I'm willing to sort of employ them. But the problem is that it's very hard to find experienced staff to be able to just get into the firm and do the work for you. Even I try everything like I try to hire a senior accountant as well, willing to pay for the cost because I think if they can do the work, it's not gonna be a cost to me isn't in like they probably can make more money. But the problem is that when they say that they have 4-5 years of experience and when after I hire them, I can't even do simple tasks that I ask them to do. I try so many things.
So back then when the GST came to Australia in the year 2000, we need a lot of staff to help because we have to prepare business activity statements every quarter and every month. And so, but at that time it was so hard to find staff, but there were a lot of graduates. There are a lot of accountants that graduate from uni but have no experience. They all come to my firm and say, ‘Hey, I'm willing to work for you for volunteering. You don't have to pay me. You just have to give me an opportunity to come in and I will help you.’ Again, the experience so they can get a job because today is a catch-22 because they can't get a job because they have no experience, and if they don't, people don't give them a job then they're not gonna have the experience.
Then I found this my staff, which is she's still with me, Nohadra. She was looking for a job for 8 or 9 months and when she came for the interview. She was in tears. She was crying. She was saying, “Eng, I don't know. I thought I finished my uni, I should be fine. I should be able to get a job, but look, after eight or nine months I still can't.” Then it suddenly brings up like, “Okay, you guys all looking for jobs and you all graduate from uni. I know how hard studying at uni.” It’s because for me it was so difficult because English wasn't my first language. So to me, anyone that can graduate from uni, they are very smart. I think they work very hard and they're very smart. So I come up with this idea, I say, “Okay, how about you guys pay me the tuition fee, and I set up this training course and then I will like to have the time to train you.” Like, I try already hiring somebody to have no experience and getting them to come to work without training them. They're just gonna sit there and then they can't do anything. All you can ask them to do is like go and photocopy, go and do filing and they're not really doing the work. So then I come up with this idea.
I created this accountant practical training course back more than 20 years ago. It's another way of hiding because I always hide wrong because when they come for an interview once or twice and when they talk nice and I just hire them ‘cause I'm very like if they talk sweet with me. I just hire them and I always hire them wrong. So I set up this and then we have like a two weeks training and they pay me sort of like a tuition fee. These two weeks of training with them, give me the opportunity to see their attitude, adaptability, personality, and whether the culture fits into our firm and how quickly they can learn and things like that. When I put them through and the promise that I give to them was that if they can pass my exam ‘cause I set up an exam. And when they're satisfied with the personalities, I will hire them and if I hire them, I will refund them the tuition fee. But for the people that I don't, they can go and get another job now that they've got the practical skills.
Now that they have experience how working in a public accounting firm, they can tell them that I know how to prepare the best, I know how to prepare the financial account and the tax return, and they will get hired. I was right, most of my students got high potential. The people that I don't hire them because I can't hire everyone. I'm just a small accounting practice. I can't. I don't have any. I can't afford to hire everyone but the people that I fit, it doesn't mean that they are super, super better than the other. It's just the culture is fit, the personality is fit and whatever I say, I just feel good. So that's why I hide my attitude and anyway, that's the story.
So then after you are hiring them, after you employ them, I also have the problem of how can I develop them and how can I sort of give them this career? Like they can't just every day just thinking, doing the same thing. You have to keep them to maintain and retain them. I have to keep training them, upskilling them, promoting them, and so forth. That doesn't stop them from going away because a lot of people will have a good opportunity and good offer more and they will leave me. But we always live on good terms because I'm fine. I mean, if I can't satisfy you, like if I can't fulfill your career path and I can't help you. Then yeah, feel free to go and do whatever that it's good for you. So, I'm fine with that and those were my three biggest challenges when I'm running the accounting firm.
Kristy Fairbarin: So if you can talk us through the framework that you built out now based on that experience, and tell us a little bit more about the 4Ps that you have and how you've implemented that now in your practice. What was your focus in training your staff members using that framework?
Eng Sivieng: So, the 4Ps that I have created are: Prepare, Process, Proof, and Pack.
What I mean by prepare is before you do any job, like for example if you give a job to your staff to do, they have to prepare really well, they have to understand which client they do, who is the client, what industry they're in, what entity they have, what's the group structure, have we got all the information? Look at last year's financial understand the balance sheet: profit or loss. Like they really understand what is this client about and they really know the outcome, what they have to do.
For example, I have to prepare. I have to finish with a pass or a tax return or a financial account. They have a very clear outcome and they also know they also get the job brief from the manager and they also got the instruction on how to do this work from start to finish. They already got the whole picture. But the reason I have this is it's actually come from my own experience. Because when I first start with Howorth, I started as I'm not experienced and then it was so hard for me to put everything together. Like them, they just teach me one thing at a time and I can't figure out how to put it together. Then I also realized that when I hire my staff. If I give them job by job, if I train them job by a job basis, I can't get the result because they're just sitting there and I have to spoon-feed them. Like they will just come to me and ask what I do next. And then, I have to serve the client. I have to get the client on board and do so many things running the accounting practice. I don't have time to sit down and really explain to them well. And then I become really frustrated and I get mad at them. I got angry and then the more I shouted or whatever. The more they get scared and I can't get the result.
So anyway, when I take the time off to trend them properly and explain to them how the job work and start to finish, really focus on that, I actually got the result. Because they are graduates, they're very smart. They get it. I tell them with any task you must prepare really well. You have to plan really well. You have to know what you're doing. You have to know all these kinds. You have to know what group structure they have so that you know when the money froze into the business or goes out, and what entity they go to. Like it is a related entity or what. So the preparation stage is very important and normally they spend a lot of time on that. Then after they got everything, after they understand everything now to process the job, it's not hard. They just sit down. It will take very quickly because there now they know from the start there. They know all the step-by-step processes in order to just follow the step-by-step. They're breaking up into little tasks ~ one task, tick it off, tick it up, and just go on and on. So the process doesn't take long, but the preparation station normally takes longer. I always say to get all the information first, otherwise, you're gonna be halfway through and say I'm missing this. And then you have to stop the work and get the information from your client. The job will sit there for 2-3 weeks and by the time you're picking up again, you forgot where you are up to. And it's not the way that we will work and it's not efficient and the process is gonna be very slow.
Then after the processing and I say to them, after you process it, you complete it, you tick off all the checklist, you finish the job. Now you have to get somewhat your manager or your supervisor to verify, and approve and you have to get the clients to prove that this is right. This is what they agree with. Then after it’s approved, that's all good. Now it's good to go, then you pack the job and then you deliver the product and then you will have a happy client. So the job will not gonna go backward and forward. So you follow the framework and for every task that you do, you just follow the framework and do exactly this framework and you are not gonna get it wrong. So that's how I train them and that's how I create this framework for all the tasks that I'm teaching them. Once they get it, I can give them any work I can give them any job to do. And I don't have to go and tell them like, What do you have to do first? What do you have to do next? They automatically follow the step-by-step system that I create the procedures and then they can sell started, and self-feeding and not spoonfeeding them if you know what I mean.
If you're spoon-feeding them, it's gonna be a nightmare, because you don't have the time and you might tell them the wrong thing and they might understand wrongly. When they make a mistake, you are wasting time, you're wasting cost, wasting everything and everyone is unhappy. I'm not happy. They're not happy. Also, their self-confidence level will drop if they keep making mistakes and they dunno what they're doing. They're nervous ‘cause the thing is like, I believe if you can build up the confidence in our people, they can do amazing things. Like if you empower them, encourage them, keep them the right way, keep them in the system, keep them the procedures step-by-step to work on, and really take the time to explain things to them. They're not stupid because they are graduates from uni. They've got their degree. Like to me it's a big thing.
Kristy Fairbairn: Yeah, Well I get to when they have an interest in the industry, then you know, they've already overcome a hurdle, they have an eagerness to learn and it's just about finding a way that encourages them to learn, and giving that context is something that we talk about a lot here at Wize. Without the context, you often have people who don't understand the process and the why, so it won't come out correctly at the other end. But if we can give that context and encourage them to have an inspiring mind in the preparation phase, then as you say, they should be able to get through the process fairly easily because they understand the elements required to get the work done, whether it's in bookkeeping or accounting space. It can cross over really well.
Eng Sivieng: Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. That is exactly right because the thing is like they already got the theory behind them. They already know that. All we have to do is just try to like to teach them how to apply the theory to the practice and they are very smart. Sometimes may my staff can pick up things like I actually missed it. If you know what I mean. Because they understood and can also self-checking or self-correcting. And when you just mention like, I don't really have to go and point out the mistake, I just say, Hey, you do it this way, do you think it's right? Have a look again, you think this number is right? Have you really considered this or that? I just don't tell them the answer. I just tell them, Look at it again, or Have a look again. And then they Oh yeah! Oh sorry, yeah, I'll make a mistake. Yeah, that's fine. I mean as long as you, I mean it's very powerful that they can see their own mistake and not I telling them they make the mistake. Because if I tell them they may not be able to remember this time, next time I have to tell them again. They can't remember. But if it's self-checking, self-correcting, it's very powerful because then they remember. And that's how I taught my staff and that's why they get a very good result. Most of our staff just self-started and we have a very good step-by-step process for them to follow.
Kristy Fairbairn: So if you think to those of us in the room as practice owners and client managers, how did you do it when you were wearing all the hats? How did you find time to build your framework and take your staff through it?
Eng Sivieng: Okay, so basically it's what Ed says ~ the balance sheet focus. It's how the time management and the quadrant 2 activities.
Okay. I'll just give you one example of how to prepare business activity statements. See how I break up my framework, like prepare, process, verification, and package/ delivery. When you look at each column, it's not much. So what they have to concentrate on in one column is the preparation, understanding the client getting information, getting the checklist, getting the information, then the process. How do they process step by step, then how do they check the checklist and review it, and then how do we send it? When you break it up, everything into like a four-quadrant, it just becomes easier. So that's just one example.
Then now coming back to Kristy's question about how I find time to create this framework. Like to me it's the quadrant of staff that Ed is always talking about is like a balance sheet. Like if I can spend more time on doing all this creating all this framework and all that, it's just gonna give back more hours to me and for the client manager, it's gonna be fewer mistakes. Like people follow the system, follow the step by step, it is gonna be fewer mistakes to be back and you don't have to handle quadrant 1 all the time ~ the crisis, the mistake, the urgency, and things like that. So this is what I learned from Ed as our mentor and he always says, to focus on the balance sheet.
Whenever I sort of say, Oh, it's wasting time, wasting fun for me to turn him to do this and I'd rather just do it myself like sometimes even I know. But sometimes I have that feeling like just quicker for me to do. But then when I stop back and then think I say, No, no, no! This is gonna be a long-term thing. If I keep doing that, then how am I gonna get out of the business? How am I'm gonna have a life? How am I'm gonna have the time to travel and do what I like? I always say to Ed, I want to be like you, so if you want to be like me, why do you keep going back to your same way anyway? So designing a framework is not wasting time and is a very important task, but it's not urgent. But if you can spend time doing that and also training staff as well, it's not wasting time. It's an investment because their staff/ employees are assets. So if you can invest in them and spend more time and we're gonna get the reward because they'll be working for you and they'll be making money for you. And then you can have life, you can have time because we all have the same time. We all have 24 hours and life is very short I'm also getting old now. I don't have much left, what I mean is going forward. So this is very important. This is now that I spend most of my time now on this stuff creating system procedures, training processes, and all that. And I enjoy it because I love teaching and I enjoy all this stuff too. I dunno why I become an accountant, but I really like designing, creating, and all these. I think it's in me. I really enjoyed it. So did I answer your question, Kristy?
Kristy Fairbairn: Yeah! Look, that's great. That's really wonderful to hear. Definitely always nice to see it come back to the quadrants.
When we look at training our people, what elements do you find are the key pieces? It's that instilling confidence. I feel like you've covered that really well today. What other elements feel really integral to training them with this framework?
Eng Sivieng: It's t empowering. You really have to because they're very smart already. You have to be able to empower them to be able to bring out their goodness and talent. If you can do that, it's very, very variable for the firm. That's what I do like when I train them, I'm not just telling them the answer. I'm empowering them. I want them to think, I want them to do, I want them to experiment with themselves and I always give them two choices. I say, Okay if I put the transaction through this way, can you see what happened to the balance sheet and profit loss account? And then they say, Yeah, okay, now if I do it this way, this is gonna, the result is will be different, right? Which one will you choose? Then they will look at it and they say, and they will always choose the right one. And then it gives me that peace of mind that when they do the job, I know they will choose the right way. So it's teaching them the technique, not just telling them the answer because they learn that from uni as well. They taught really well they want you to think and they want you to be able to apply to the case and this and that.
The other thing is that believe in them because especially now we are working with overseas staff from the Philippines and the culture from there and here is different because I'll come from Laos and I know the Asian culture is like with the Asian culture is like they really respect the boss. Whatever the boss says, they always say, Yes! right? They don't say no even if they don't know how to do the work. They still say, Yes, I’ll do it. Then they don't know how to do the work, but they don't tell you. They don't speak up and you don't know whether they don't know because they live virtually like they live overseas.
You give them a task to do and then you expect them to finish because they didn't come back to you. And then you are happy. You say, Oh good, they didn't come back and ask me any questions. That must be because they know how to do the work and then the time is just wasted. And then when they come back it's all wrong. And then now you've got the deadline, you've got the due date from the client. You get really panicking, and upset and say, What if you don't know, why don't you come back and ask me? It's just because you haven't encouraged them to speak up and, maybe when they make a mistake, you really get mad at them. So they get scared. The more fear that they have, the more they're not gonna open up to you. Then when they make the mistake, all they'll say is, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And you say sorry doesn't do a thing just and up the bloody thing, I just want the job done. And, then you get really mad. So, I understand the culture. So during my training I always encourage them, I say, when you don't know something, it's okay. Just tell me, and I'll train you myself. That it's okay that you don't understand. You just ask me, you ask me any question. You just need to speak up. You're gonna learn more and it's gonna be good for your career path. I always say it's good for you. It's ideal for your development and your career. It's okay to not know some things. If you'd open up and you speak up, you ask, learn more, you can gain more. So I always encourage them and then if they do something right, I just go, Wow! You're so smart. You're so good and I appreciate that. I really give them that positive feedback and they get really excited. I say, You did a great job! That's it. That's the way. And you keep bringing them to the right path. Then because they got the affirmation like affirm from you that, Yeah, you did it right! They have more confidence. The more confidence they build, the more competence they have. And then, it just adds up. Then practice, practice, and practice. You keep giving them the right practice, the right technique, and the right procedures, and the step and make them think they're not gonna go wrong because these people are smart. They just need the opportunity to be able to try and just have to bring the goodness out of them. So that's how I train them. I train them because I know they're smart and I want them to help me. I want them to do more than I could. Like I don't think I'm smart enough to know everything, but I need those smart and bright talents to help to grow the business. So I always come up with something and say, Hey, let's go and think about brainstorming, who can come up with a good answer? Then we discuss and we work. I train them by working as a team and then also by encouraging them. Because I believe they have talents, all of them. They're very talented.
Kristy Fairbairn: There are some really great points in there. That will resonate with a lot of us, even in doing our team NPS. Oftentimes in my firm, I see the feedback metric as the one that changes the most and I can really tell if I've been actively praising my team or not. They really feel it and they really appreciate it. It can be just a simple little cheer for them in Karbon and a little comment, a little public praise in Slack to everyone shouting out how great they were. Just those little things that to us as firm owners, we're really busy in the vision of where our business is going, but to get the most out of our people, sometimes they just need the simplest affirmation that they're doing a great job.
Eng Sivieng: Yes, that's right.
Kristy Fairbairn: Giving them a clear framework and opportunity. It's great.
Eng Sivieng: True. Yeah. Also, the thing that Thomas set up this Slack and we celebrate like when we win something when we have something to share, which is really, really good because we're working with the overseas team now and we don't see each other in the office. Like, it's a different office environment. Like if it's in the office, I can just walk to them, pack on the shoulders, say, Hey, but because we are not, and Slack becomes now. That’s because I get used to working virtually, I can feel it like it's just very funny. You don't see the person, but you can feel it because of the channel that we have something to celebrate. And it's very important to celebrate all the wins, like even the little thing and then people really appreciate them. It works. It creates that positive atmosphere and it's really good.
Kristy Fairbairn: Yeah. Wonderful.
All right, we'll just quickly cover off. In your experience, do you prefer fresh graduates versus junior intermediate and senior accountants?
Eng Sivieng: Okay, just like what I said before is like, senior accountants are good, but they've very, they have these limited beliefs. As they come in, they have all this baggage, they learn from other firms, the habits, the behavior, the attitude and they're very less adaptive. It's like when you have a system there step by step and then you want them to follow. They say, Why do I have to do it this way? I already know how to do the job. I can finish from start to finish. You don't have to teach me. With that, they really resistant to change. Then you argue with them and the very like some of them are really less flexible.
Like for example, I have a staff that I say, don't do the journal entry. I hate journal entries. Journal entry is very dangerous for the tax office. They will look at it and the thing that you make up the account. I want you to process the actual transaction. Then she will say, I always do a journal entry, I want to do a journal entry, so I'm gonna do the journal entry. I go, What do I say? I go, Thomas, I don't like this. So they also come with a lot of excuses and because of what they have always done and all that, it's just hard to teach it because they, it's not their fault either because they've been doing it that way and they think is that that is the way that they will do. But then when they come to our firm and we have a culture to follow. We got Karbon, we got step-by-step, we got tasks and we won't even want to use one system. So we all know where we are up to.
Let's say this person is up to step number eight and they got sick and can't work, we can easily get someone to go and okay, continue to work. But then they don't have to start from the beginning. They can just start from step number eight. But if you don't follow the system and you don't have that, then everything will be over the place. Like if they just come and do whatever they want, now I don't know what the job is up to. Then when we have to pick up that job again, we have to start from the beginning, and it doesn't work. But with the fresh grade, they're very quick learners. And not only that, they're very tech-savvy and very quick to learn technology. You teach them the software well that gets it so quickly. They're flexible. They're very eager to learn. They're young, they're energetic, and everything is new to them. Everything is fun to them. Everything is really a new thing. They really want to do well. They really want to do well because they think the world is so beautiful because they're young, and they haven't gone through all the things that we went through.
Kristy Fairbairn: Ah, so good.
For everyone wanting to go on this journey of developing their staff with this type of framework and their own training, what are the top three tips that you would give them to do this successfully and to get similar results?
Eng Sivieng: Okay, so I got here the three tips. It's like you really need to take time building this structured framework, and step-by-step procedures. You need to have this in order to be able to try and you can't just go and give them the job here and there. It's just not gonna work. But if you have a structure and framework, the patterns and the step-by-step procedure and the system, if you build that, it's gonna be good.
But then the most important thing is that you have to have the time to focus on that training. You can't just leave it, you have it. But if you don't train them how to use it, it's not gonna work. So you really have to have the time and focus of doing that. And also the ability to empower people, encouraging people to bring out their best, and their talent. That's my three tips if you want to build this successful training program.
Kristy Fairbairn: Yeah, I think they're wonderful tips and definitely things that we could Ed talk about a lot as well.
Ed Chan: Yeah, I've been on this journey with ing from the start because in first when she suggested hiring two juniors. I thought one is hard because it consumes another person to train them. I remember at the time when we didn't have that much time, the capacity wasn't as much, and then I was a bit skeptical.
Hiring one junior, let alone in high two is gonna take even more time from the senior. There was no capacity at the time. But having seen it work and the juniors got trained so quickly and within a few months, they were doing the work of a one-year experience person. Then within a short period of time, they were doing the work of a two-year experience person and it just blew me away. So I've seen it work firsthand and then I've seen the work getting done, physically getting done and being ahead of the program there. We schedule the work and so forth and so we could see the productivity, there was a huge increase in productivity from very junior staff. So all credit to you in for putting all the work.
Eng Sivieng: Thank you.
Ed Chan: I call that working and investing in the systems in your balance sheet so that the system, so you can be systems dependent, not people dependent. You can use the system now to scale your business so that you can put your employees through this program. But I guess it is easier to train the graduates and people who were junior and as you say, there was no baggage for them to fight against. But it's also a good thing to just put your existing people through, I think just to fine-tune their technique because a lot of times if someone takes two hours to do something instead of an hour, a lot of its technique and they're going a long way around instead of cutting to the chase.
A lot of that is to do with the baggage they've gathered from previous experiences and just do a rehearsal of fine-tuning what they should be doing. It's great as well.
Eng Sivieng: Yeah, that's true.
Kristy Fairbairn: So we've just covered off that, but it does, it definitely brings them through up to the experienced intermediate really quickly. So it's been fantastic learning more about this program that you've got in and I think there'll be a little bit more about the program that you've developed and how other firm owners can actually get access to it and use it in their own businesses have that going out our post clinic email to everyone. So that'll be really exciting for members to have a look at how they can actually implement this in their firm without needing to go through the experience and road bumps that you've already endured for us and you've put together Eng, in something that we can start utilizing. So that's fantastic.